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^ v
Comma says:
(Sat Aug 17 10:39:54 2019 [Edit/Delete]
ChristopherMarlowe: You will not hear any comment, from me, when Jane passes. I cannot use those words on this board!


^ v
ShadowQuest says:
(Sat Aug 17 08:30:52 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Zoom back through the other

wolfguard I'd look absolutely ridiculous in a habit.

white wings Medieval arms and armor are fascinating. I can lose myself in
research for hours.

Don't, however, start researching medieval torture devices. Especially not one
known as The Pear. me. Don't.

I wandered into the military encampment at Bristol Renaissance Fair last
Saturday. Specifically the area with the armor. The nice gentlemen there
started to go into their "tourist spiel." One guy picked up a piece of armor and
I said "That's a cuisse." He blinked and set it down and said "Well, if you have
any questions..." I just smiled and started taking pictures of the different

Totally stumped him when I asked for the correct pronunciation for lames. And
neither of them knew if the longbow was made of yew.

They had many stabby pointy things. I warned them "Don't look at me if something
goes missing." They laughed and one said "I'm not sure the swords would fit in
your pouch." I said "The rondel might."

Well, it's late, and I have a dump run to make tomorrow, so I'm off. I shall
return, though.

Zoom, zoom

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 17 05:17:22 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,



I remember Babe. *g*


Don't resist the habit. *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 17 04:43:38 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Amywyn and TheName!

lostinamerica - How could I have forgotten?! ;-)

ShadowQuest - You sent me down another rabbit hole of armory, and I branched off into longbows vs. crossbows. But the conclusions mostly seemed the same, that a good piece of plate armor could fend off arrows with minor penetrations, but it had to be good, and it had to have good coverage. Some of the arrow points were spectacularly nasty, though. There weren't a lot of guarantees.

wolfguard - The medical examiner has spoken, and the tinfoil hats have come out. Why did the report remain vague, without the usual precise drawings of what was broken? Breaking the hyoid without manual strangulation should require some velocity. Epstein was allegedly found in a kneeling position, leaning against a sheet tied to the upper bunk, which someone said was 5.5' high. To achieve velocity, he would have had to hurl himself off the upper bunk, but what are the odds that he would wind up landing in a kneeling position? But then, no one wanted to say it was absolutely impossible. His lawyers are hanging onto a murder theory, which someone said equated to billable hours. Why? How? Why?

I wonder how possible it was to get into the cells? Could people just freely come and go if they were wandering around the halls? I haven't heard that mentioned. Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't know. *g*

So the saga continues, but they may move on to possible accomplices and means of plundering the estate. I think the reported rats and mold in the building are going to be forgotten.

Back to medieval times - the issue of weight is serious, but back in the day, how many people were walking around in plate armor instead of riding on horseback? Surely the people on the ground were just arrow fodder?

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Aug 17 02:46:54 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Comma I respect the man's career, although not necessarily his politics.

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Sat Aug 17 02:08:15 2019 [Edit/Delete]
white wings, wolfguard--There
are no blue cows. There is,
however, a large blue ox owned by a
Mr. Paul Bunyan of Minnesota :D

Happy Belated Birthday Maverick,
and St. Germain!

^ v
ShadowQuest says:
(Sat Aug 17 01:41:02 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Zoom through

This is almost getting to be a

wolfguard I meant the weight
was equivalent, not the style of the
armor itself.

Weapons changed as the body
protection changed.

There was a program on PBS earlier
in the year where someone here in WI
was tasked with trying to recreate a
medieval breastplate the way
armorers back then did. It was a
very time-consuming process.

Last weekend I was at the
renaissance fair and took lots of
pictures of all the different
components of armor they had on
display, including a full suit, and
various helms. Beautiful stuff.

The armor in the Lord of the Rings
movies was based on actual armor of
different nations. Aside from the
obvious - Rohirrim, Gondorian, Elven
- there was also the Uruk armor, the
Easterlings, and the Haradrim.
Everything was based on historical

Zoom, zoom

^ v
Comma says:
(Fri Aug 16 22:57:37 2019 [Edit/Delete]
May Peter Fonda R.I.P.!


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 16 22:43:57 2019 [Edit/Delete]
I trust people had a good day?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Aug 16 19:12:38 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Friday, August 16th 2019 C.E.

We have TWO (2) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Amywyn, TheName

You know, with the exception of one deadly and unpredictable midget, this girl is the smallest cargo I've ever had to transport. Yet by far the most troublesome. Does that seem right to you? Early, 'Objects In Space''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 16 13:14:56 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Good morning beta, it's Friday!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 16 06:16:35 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

The news article I read was from the Washington Post. It said the
information on multiple fractions came from someone(s) having some sort of
access to the autopsy, but as you noted the information was not an official
report from the coroner.


Many people who commit suicide by hanging do it by attaching the 'rope' to a
solid object and then letting themselves go limp. If the noose tightens
quickly their blood pressure will drop and they will pass out - and then in
a few minutes they will die from lack of oxygen. If the noose does not
tighten quickly, then the person may have time to change their minds, right
themselves and get the noose off. The competent noose-maker will die. The
incompetent one might live.

I have read in more than one source that the thickness of plate armor in a
given suit varied with how thick the armorer thought it needed to be - and
no thicker. There was a man who built armor has hobby. He worked as a
technician/craftsman for the company that built the Lunar landing module.
Saving mass was critical so the thickness of the metal skin varied with how
thick it needed to be. He was tasked with building it. The module floor was
so thin in places that marks had to be designated showing where the
astronauts could place their feet and where they could not.

I'm not sure how similar medieval plate armor is to modern infantry body
armor. The latter consist of vest or carriers in which you can insert plates
which can be made of different materials. There're different types. The Army
and Marines are probably continuously experimenting with improvements, so
perhaps there's some sort of modern body armor like medieval plate armor.

OTOH, some problems will never be solved. One eternal problem for infantry
is weight of their kit, the stuff they carry. The Roman General Marius'
legionnaires were called Marius' Mules for the weight of the stuff each had
to carry. Two thousand years later and soldiers are still humping heavy

In the spring of 1864, the Union Army headed South towards Richmond. Each
soldier, as part of their kit, had a blanket and an overcoat. Too much
stuff. The soldiers began tossing away one or the other, so many that one
Union officer complained a man could walk back to Washington stepping on
coats without every touching dirt. *g*


^ v
ShadowQuest says:
(Fri Aug 16 05:20:12 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Zoom through

A few thoughts.

On suicide by hanging: Most people who attempt to hang themselves position the
knot of the noose incorrectly. It should be to the side, just ahead of the ear
and under the angle of the jaw, so that when the weight of the body drops, it
snaps the neck abruptly up and sideways, separating vertebrae. Otherwise it's
basically just choking you/cutting off air, and you're more likely to pass out
than actually die. (And here's another thing: you can choke yourself into
unconsciousness, but as soon as you pass out your hands will relax their grip,
and you'll begin breathing again.)

On the weight of mail versus plate armor: A full suit of plate armor
weighs approximately 40-50 pounds, but the weight is evenly distributed
across the entire body. (By full I mean helm, gorget, cuirass, rerebraces,
vambraces, gauntlets, cuisses, greaves and sabatons.) It's equivalent to a
fireman's gear or what modern soldiers carry into combat.

The weight of chainmail hangs from the shoulders, or from a belt worn about the
waist, and sometimes mail is combined with plate armor. Plate armor, especially
fitted armor, was very expensive, and not all soldiers could afford it.

Mail was popular in the 12th century, but plate armor began to be added, until by
the 15th century full suits of armor were more common. Despite common myths,
plate armor was not heavy or cumbersome/awkward - it couldn't be if the knight
were to survive. A fit man in full plate armor could actually tumble down a
hill, get up or get on a horse unassisted.

On weapons vs plate armor: Watch any of Skallagrim's videos on the
subject to learn more. For example:

Zoom, zoom

^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Aug 16 02:48:22 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe - I saw that an unofficial record size hailstone (4.83" diameter) fell in Colorado. South Dakota remains safe, however, with an 8" diameter hailstone.

wolfguard - You had better quality hunting than I had. I somehow managed to stumble over what appeared to be DIY instructions for suicide, over which I did not linger. However, there were pages that were less repellent, and I gathered that the hyoid bone can be fractured, and is more likely to be so with age. But it wasn't the only bone injured. The armchair experts are still making pronouncements, and the coroner has made none (that is public).

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 16 02:31:16 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

Follows link to abstract of "Fractures of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage
in suicidal hanging"

I saw a variation of the Boris Johnson quote.

~ My chances of being PM are about as good as the chances of finding Elvis on
Mars or my being reincarnated as an olive. ~



^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Aug 16 02:21:55 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Bethy, IMMORTAL, Maverick, and nil8r!

Christopher Marlowe - Is that Watcher Management course oriented towards Watchers managing slayers, Councils managing Watchers, or Slayers managing both?

wolfguard - C'mon, that's unlikely about cows. *g* But then, once upon a time I didn't know that chickens laid blue eggs, and they do. Well, Aracauna chickens lay blue or green Easter eggs. A friend got Aracaunas, and I saw the eggs hot out of the chicken.

As God is my witness, I thought black swans were just an infrequent color variant that happened everywhere. I didn't know that they are a separate variety originating in Australia with white flight feathers. I didn't know that white swans with black necks existed, let alone originating in South America. Did you plant those stories yesterday all over the Internet just to make me doubt myself and my education? *suspicious*

I saw no references to blue cows. I have, however, seen pictures recently of a hot pink grasshopper. Apparently they produce excess red pigmentation and seldom live very long, because they are rather noticeable. So perhaps a red cow is possible. *g*

Boris Johnson needs to watch his back for Frisbees. Elvis has left the building, but perhaps he's sneaking in a back door?

It appears that Epstein's fatal injuries are at first sight more consistent with third-party strangulation than with suicide, but there are still possibilities for either. It gets more interesting.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 16 01:07:07 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Posting prompt? *g*


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 15 23:20:54 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Slayer Great Courses

Watcher Management
Stake Techniques
Magic 101
Demons and other non-human life

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 15 23:15:22 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

category: Spaaaaaaaaaaaace!
Question: Io orbits what planet?
Answer: Jupiter

Trivia Astronauts: wolfguard and notsoShyGirl!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 15 18:39:31 2019 [Edit/Delete]
"My chances of being PM are about as good as my chances of being
decapitated by a frisbee or for finding Elvis.

- Boris Johnson, current Prime Minister of the UK



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 15 17:47:16 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl,

Jupiter - the also ran, the failed star. *g*

White Wings,

I knew what cows looked like. *g* On weekends my father would take us into the
countryside where he'd point out crops and livestock (he was a car dealer).

Besides, recall where the phrase, 'black swan', came from. Inductive logic is
based on generalizing observations. For a long time, Europeans saw white swans
and concluded swans are white (tentative conclusion). Then they go to
Australia and see back swans. Similarly, somewhere there maybe blue or green
or red cows. Perhaps in Australia, perhaps Ayers Rock? *g*


^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Aug 15 16:57:55 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 15 15:31:54 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

category: Spaaaaaaaaaaaace!
Question: Io orbits what planet?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Aug 15 14:31:32 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Thursday, August 15th 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Bethy, IMMORTAL, Maverick, nil8r

They're doing it backwards; walking up the down slide. River, 'Ariel''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 15 13:32:38 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Good morning beta! I'm going a bit
slower this morning, but birthdays
and trivia coming up!

^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Aug 15 03:56:09 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Ariadne, gangfolles, KarenT, Microphone Chick, Minnin, shadowgirl, slayersworld, and StGermain!

wolfguard - Denali is that big, then? I'm glad you were able to see it given the usual visibility.

Somewhere in heaven my father is jealous that he didn't think to try a similar milk joke. *g* Perhaps he didn't because I'd seen cows as a child and knew about milk. He pulled some other stunts.

It rained! Not much, but the driveway was wet. I heard thunder! It's not quite 11, and the temperature is down to 81. Who knows? Maybe it will happen again before the end of August. Sometimes it happens.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 15 01:29:02 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Thu Aug 15 01:32:35 2019

If Epstein could have implicated other people, then why didn't the D.A.
offer him a better deal in exchange? That said, I don't imagine Epstein was
that much of an outlier in his sexual behaviors (though he may have had the
sort of resources that let him indulge widely and deeply.

The KGB probably knew the questionable habits of powerful men. The FSB has
probably inherited the capabilities. Perhaps one of the folks running for
the nomination should ask the Russians for help? *g*

How's the Weinstein prosecution doing?

ETA Christopher Marlowe

It's an ideology, though whether or not it's viable depends on one's goals.
There's a famous international relations article titled "Anarchy Is What A
State Makes of It" by Alexander Wendt.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 15 01:21:11 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard I was reading a
fictional book about an anarchistic
society. Is anarchy a viable

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Aug 14 23:27:09 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: In which episode does
Ratio Hornblower appear?
Answer: Smile Time

Trivia Directors: notsoShyGirl!

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Aug 14 20:31:32 2019 [Edit/Delete]
white wings wolfguard Christopher Marlowe Re Epstein. We don't need those toehr theories or connectiosn. Considerign how serious the chagres were, and how many powerful men went to Epstien's evnets, that alone shows there was a n added diemsnion, evne if the suicide was entirely his diea

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 14 17:13:11 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Wed Aug 14 17:13:42 2019
"Bystander Myth"?

Source: BBC Online


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Aug 14 14:08:34 2019 [Edit/Delete]
white wings At the item I posted, nobody else had reacted. I had, about 10 months before, Tweeted to her and a guy she had been seeing, my condolences over their not being able to make it work, so maybe she thought I was to involv3ed with her. (I like to describe Charisma and then boyfriend Mike Rossi as a sane version of Demi & Ashton, but of course I never sued those words to them.

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Aug 14 13:43:51 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Smile Time

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Aug 14 13:39:17 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Wednesday, August 14th 2019 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!

Microphone Chick

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Ariadne, gangfolles, KarenT, Microphone Chick
Minnin, shadowgirl, slayersworld, StGermain

Very convincing. Makes me completely want to put myself under government control. Please take me to where you can make me unconscious and naked. Riley, 'Out of My Mind'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Aug 14 13:14:13 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: In which episode does Ratio Hornblower appear?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 14 05:48:02 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

I finished Doughnut Economics last Saturday. I didn't learn anything
new, though the author provided some support and hope to people who do not
like or believe or trust mainstream economics.

White Wings,

The "clouds" are the Milky Way! *G* I had similar experience a little over
a year ago in Alaska. The town of Talkeetna calls itself the gateway to
Denali. You approach the town from the south on a spur road. A mile or two
from town there's a pull over where - weather permitting - you may see part
of the Alaska Range and maybe Mt Denali.1 We were told people
usually only have a 30% chance of seeing it on any given visit (weather). As
I was approaching the pull-over I could see an immense mountain. Whoa. And
then I learned it wasn't Denali, but a smaller mountain. Later that day I
saw Mt Denali. WHOAAAAAA! *g*

When I was a child milk was still delivered to the house and in glass
bottles. Once my father put bottles of green, red, and blue milk on the
table explaining that just as white milk came from white cows and chocolate
milk from brown cows, green-red-blue came from green, red, and blue cows
(he'd spiked the milk with food coloring). *g*

1 Mt. McKinley to some outsiders. All the locals call it Denali.


^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Aug 14 04:06:16 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday chaos813, JS_Mill, wamdue_castle, and Whisper2AScream!

DaddyCatALSO - It's not as though you were uncomplimentary. She posted a nude picture in a public setting, and, well, people are only human. But she might have gotten reactions that made her particularly sensitive to the issue.

Agent Cooper - Were you in a sensory-deprivation chamber? *g*

wolfguard - I know. When I lived in town, and Austin is not as large as Atlanta, I never tried to see meteors. Or constellations, or much of anything in the night sky except for lightning. I was reminded about them when I went on pack trips in wilderness areas in Colorado, and when I kept my horse at a pasture that was twenty minutes from the nearest small town. I'd keep looking at clouds, and realizing all over again that they were the Milky Way.

Now, for a brief spell, I can see the night. I can't see the Milky Way, but the east side of my house faces a golf course, and there are some hills and trees between me and the main road and a fairly large outdoor mall. The people across the fairway are starting to put more lights out, but they are lower than my house, and for now my oak trees block most of them. So I can sit on a small balcony outside my bedroom and look at one quadrant of the sky that is fortunately where the Perseids radiate from.

I had some luck last night. The moonlight was pretty bright, but I could just make out the constellation Casseopeia, so I could face the right way. I was out quite a while, but I did spot three really bright shooting stars and two faint ones. That's not many for the Perseids. I once saw them from a mountain meadow, and they were stunning, but with the moonlight I was lucky. There were a number of planes, and a skunk perfumed the air, but there was a breeze that finally cleared it. That is the reason why I stay on a balcony and don't go out in my yard. There are denizens of the dark that I do not want to bump into.

LOL! to the LA UFOs! That's kind of like people learning where milk comes from. *g*

Hong Kong is going to get itself into a bad situation sooner than it otherwise would have. They say that the military, plus tanks, are massing at the border. They also say that the crowds are waving American flags. It would be a compliment, but it's also a red flag to the, you know, Red Chinese.

Apparently conspiracy theories abound over Epstein. It's a bipartisan activity. Clinton did it, Trump did it, Epstein was a Moussad agent. The Russians did it. That must be only skimming the surface. Someone posted the news of his death on 4chan before it was officially released. And someone (NYT?) said that someone reported yelling or screaming from the cell before he was found. People have been placed on leave over it. I wonder if the reported rats and black mold will be cleaned up? That's going too far. ;-)

Christopher Marlowe - See above. Still plenty of conspiracies afloat. Perhaps a few facts will settle things down.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 14 02:55:32 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Any good books

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 14 01:48:27 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Looks like the
mystery around Epstein's death is
still a mystery but less

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 14 01:21:21 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard That's why I said
she was close as there was an
Expresso Pump on the show.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 14 00:57:19 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl,

In notsoShyGirl's defense, the Grotto was originally called "The
Bronze", but the owner of the Bronze sued them for an infringement of
intellectual property. The owner of the "College Coffee Shop Once Known as The
Bronze" settled out of court and changed the name to "The Grotto" pending a
contest for a new name. Then someone burned down The Grotto. During the summer
of 2000 part of the Initiative was renovated and named "The Grotto" under new


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Aug 13 23:43:27 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What was the name of the
coffee shop at UC Sunnydale?
Answer: The Grotto

Trivia OhSoClose: notsoShyGirl

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 13 17:49:41 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

The reporting I've heard and read said Epstein had been taken off suicide

White Wings,

Atlanta just has too much light pollution and in the summer, rain clouds, to
hope to see much of the Perseid shower. It's so depressing. :(

It does remind me of an insightful story. Some years ago, Los Angeles
experienced a city-wide power outage at night. Very soon 911 was receiving
calls of strange lights in the sky, some reporting UFO's. Many locals were
at last seeing the stars. *g*

Things do not look well in Hong Kong. Protests continue and China ramps up
response. Professor Victoria Hui, University of Notre Dame, believes some of
the protesters - or earlier ones - were police agents.

Britain return Hong Kong to China in 1997. Around that time Hong Kong
contributed ~20% to China's GDP. Today Hong Kong contributes around 3%. I
imagine one of the only factors staying China's hand is how their actions
will be perceived by Taiwan. Recall Deng describing China and Hong Kong's
relationship as "One Country, Two Systems" was also meant to entice Taiwan.

How enticing now?


^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Tue Aug 13 16:07:59 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
The Espresso Pump

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Aug 13 14:54:06 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Wow. I haven't looked at any news
in a week. Epstein hanged himself?
In a jail cell? After he was
already on suicide watch?
Thats....convenient for alot of
powerful people.

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Aug 13 14:12:03 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Got it.

white wings Yes, it was the power of routine for me. I belong to a number of Facebook groups and when another fan psots a good-looking photo of whichever actress we follow I tend to make approving comments. So, when Charisma Tweeted a nude shot of herself in the woods at Big Bur, my natural reaction was to reply, Oh, sweet lord Jesus."

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Aug 13 12:54:15 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What was the name of the
coffee shop at UC Sunnydale?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Aug 13 12:26:25 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Tuesday, August 13th 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to chaos813, JS_Mill, wandue_castle, Whisper2AScream

I like books. I just don't want to take on too much. Do they have an introduction to the modern blurb? Buffy, 'The Freshman''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Aug 13 12:18:00 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Good morning beta!

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Aug 13 03:11:06 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - I'm afraid I'm simply not sufficiently scientifically inclined to try out the suicide theories. *g*

I don't know what you were thinking, but what I read pretty much came out in my mind the way you rewrote it.

The Perseid meteor shower is supposed to peak tonight, or early tomorrow morning. There is no way I'm going out in the pre-dawn hours, so I might try to brave the moonlight and go out soon. Or not. I suspect there are allergens around.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 13 01:02:37 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Tue Aug 13 01:09:23 2019

I forgot to reply to part of your post: the weight of chain mail. As I heard
it, the thickness of a suit of plate armor can vary depending on what
particular piece or area of the plate needs to do, while chain mail has the
same density across the entire suit.

White Wings,

If the pressure from the ligature applies on the sides of the neck, as well
as the front, then it will compress veins and arteries. The resulting drop
in blood flow to the brain can lead to sudden unconsciousness. So the person
committing suicide quickly passes out, losing the chance to change his mind.

It's possible a person imagine they can begin to hang themselves, but will
have some time to recover if they change their minds. They probably will

Off this, I've often told of a news story about a man who tried to kill
himself by jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. Nutshell: He jumped,
immediately regretted it, and survived though with serious injuries. He went
on to become a suicide councilor. The other day I saw him for the first time
on some show. For years he had been promoting nets be put up along the sides
of the bridge and it was being done. He spoke of his attempt. ~As soon as my
hands left the bridge I realized I had made a mistake (Not sure if he was
hanging from the bridge and let go or vaulted/pushed off).

Recently I read an article reporting findings that many people feel a sudden
impulse to kill themselves and if something stops or slows them down, then
they made not resume their attempt. This is a reason guns figure prominently
in suicides - it tends to work. OTOH, I read one cop's account of a man who
tried to kill himself by putting a shotgun under this jaw. As he had pulled
the trigger, he flinched away and the pellets took off his lower jaw and a
section of his face. He survived and took fun in ordering food deliveries so
he could scare the delivery person.

ETA This passage above, "...that many people feel a sudden impulse to kill
themselves ..." is poorly written. I do not mean "many people..." but many
of the people who decide to kill themselves do so on impulse. If they are
forestalled, they often pull back. What was I thinking?


^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Aug 13 00:12:52 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Minidrag33, Robin, silverclouds, and Willa

DaddyCatALSO - Wha?? Oh, forgiveness. You didn't say it was about a twitter blocking. I had imagined something a little closer. I think you are correct. Charisma probably has a lot of stuff coming at her. Even private people who have the misfortune to have their names get in the news can attract a lot of attention, some of it friendly and a lot of it really ugly. It's been like that long before twitter existed. I'd say she has to follow a rule of "better safe than sorry". It's sad, but there it is.

Chain mail could be rendered less burdensome with a belt that could support some of the weight - brought to you courtesy of wolfguard's YouTube finds.

wolfguard - I gathered that it had to be a case of strangulation. But "hanging" brings to mind a visual of someone suspended from a higher point. It must take a lot of self-control to kill oneself by simply allowing yourself to choke when you have the power to stop it. Nasty.

I just saw a report of a bedsheet and the top of a bunk. That still doesn't mean that he applied the bedsheet himself. Apparently his cellmate was transferred out just before he came in, and the guards failed to check him regularly. But it doesn't mean it wasn't self-inflicted either. A lot of people are angry.

LOL! to attaching a wood table to the ax. One of the YouTube videos you led me to had a demonstration of why axes and swords were used to knock down someone in plate armor for final finishing off with a dagger in between the plates because the larger weapon was apt to stick.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 12 23:36:36 2019 [Edit/Delete]

"Stomp" is the word that first came to mind for describing the front
kick/push-away used to extract the bayonet from the body of the foe that got
in the way.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Aug 12 22:54:16 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Tue Aug 13 01:15:44 2019
unnydale's Trivial Pursuits

Category: Inventions
Question: Christopher Latham Sholes invented what modern piece of office
Answer: typewriter or QWERTY keyboard

Trivia Original, never a copy: NotSoShyGirl!

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Aug 12 18:22:43 2019 [Edit/Delete]
, wolfguard " then front stomped him " ?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 12 18:16:08 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

My early image of hanging came from Hollywood westerns. People were hung
high.1 It wasn't till 11th grade when I got my hands on some
criminal investigation and forensic books that I learned suicide by
"hanging" is usually better described as self-strangulation. As you might
recall, actor Robin Williams "hung" himself with a belt in his closet.

1 One reason for hanging from a height is the sudden drop snaps
the neck which is suppose to be more humane - and I suspect it is.


While searching sites on swords I came across a video on why Vikings like
the ax. One of the things the host said was Vikings probably did not hack
into wood shields, because the ax might get stuck and then what have you
achieved? ~ You've attached a long, wood table to your ax.1

He believes shields were used as weapons to feel out the opponent and to
provide cover for what you were doing (these were one-on-one fights). The
blade on the ax he used was shaped to provide a hooking ability. When he and
his mate sparring, they used their shields to cover, probe, and beat down
the other guy's shield and weapon - then suddenly a ax or sword would appear
and hit you like a striking snake. I think it would be highly stressful way
to fight - like walking through a room of mirrors and curtains not knowing
when ...


1 I can attest to this sort of thing happening to me. I also
remember seeing a WWI bayonet drill where after thrusting the bayonet into
the foe, the soldier then front stomped him to free the bayonet. Blades
stick in logs, blades stick in bodies.


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Aug 12 16:23:20 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard white wings Christopher Marlowe On swords and Epstein:

Was that prisoner discussing the suicide watch cells or t he general ones? Hanging oneself from a bed frame: like Lord Argentine in Machen's "The White People."

I think the authorities knew what they were doing when they took him off suicide watch and depended on his own awareness of what he was expected to do. We'll see how many records disappear now.

Pedophiles, killers especially, are the lowest of the low in prisons (even lower than rapists who aren't otherwise criminals,) but they are typically used for "various functions," not killed. Committing "suicide by throwing themselves down a flight of stairs" or "shot trying to escape" tend to occur to cop-killers. Pedophiles and other rapists from w hat little I've seen tend to be very timid when they're arrested.
That w as one thing about eh bad guy in my failed screenplay. Yes, he was a sex-weirdo serial killer, but had no hesitation in killing a cop when he was caught by a metro patrolman.

Mail armor is also heavy to wear because it basically hangs form a single part of the body. Full plate hangs from multiple points.

I wasn't trying to address all swords since short swords and scimitars were not things one would see in the times-and-places we were discussing.

white wings Given that she is a celebrity who has to protect herself, I am *not* going to accuse Charisma of being harsh if she refuses to unblock me on Twitter.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Aug 12 13:37:56 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Monday, August 12th 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Minidrag33, Robin, silverclouds, Willa

Joyce: Dawn, you be good. Xander: We will. Just gonna play with some matches, run with scissors, take candy from some guy, I don't know his name. 'Real Me''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Aug 12 13:36:19 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
The typewriter

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Aug 12 13:31:56 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuits

Category: Inventions
Question: Christopher Latham Sholes
invented what modern piece of
office equipment?

^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Aug 12 06:57:42 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - That does sound possible. How very unpleasant.

I guess we will have to wait on autopsy results. They took the precaution of having a private doctor
observing. Must be lots of doubt going round. There are whole lot of possible motives available, so
one has to fall back on facts.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 12 06:33:28 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

Suicide by hanging doesn't need height. Various items can be used, but just
imagine a shirt. One ties one sleeve to any object that can take the strain.
The other sleeve is tied around the neck. Now one just goes limp. In a few
seconds the person passes out and they will not regain consciousness before
they asphyxiate.

People had hung themselves off door knobs, bed frames, closet poles.


^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Aug 12 05:43:18 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - I could believe in J.P. Morgan, at least once the fire had started, if before it was put out. ;-)

Some guy who had been in a similar unit to the one Epstein was in was interviewed:
"Theres no way that man could have killed himself. Ive done too much time in those units. Its an impossibility.
Between the floor and the ceiling is like eight or nine feet. Theres no way for you to connect to anything.
You have sheets, but theyre paper level, not strong enough. He was 200 pounds it would never happen.
The clothing they give you is a jump-in uniform. Everything is a dark brown color.
Could he have done it from the bed? No sir. Theres a steel frame, but you cant move it. Theres no light fixture. Theres no bars.
They dont give you enough in there that could successfully create an instrument of death. You want to write a letter, they give you rubber pens and maybe once a week a piece of paper."

He went on to say a few other things, but more about the guards and the state of mind created in those places, which would, IMO, make the thought of suicide a probability.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 12 04:54:28 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

Some evolutionary psychologists speculate our perceptions evolved so to
suspect that behind any change in our environment there was a responsible
actor. Their rationale can be explained with an example ...

Grass moving nearby. What could be the cause?

- Wind?
- Lion?

If you default to wind and continue with your business and it's a lion, then
you could get eaten.

If you default to lion and move away and it's the wind, you've expended a
little bit of energy, but you've not been eaten.

All changes have causes and the default identification of the cause is
usually an actor or some sort. We also seem to focus on fascinating
explanations over mundane explanations. If the change is significant, we
tend to believe the cause was of the same caliber. The Great Chicago fire
may have been caused when Mrs. O'Leary's cow kicked over the lantern, but
the Illuminati placed the lantern, the Knights Templar poked the cow, and
the name of the "cow" - Ferdinand (Also J.P. Morgan stood ready to buy the
razed land). *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Aug 12 02:00:09 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - We were wrong about me. As a conspiracist, I need to just go back to my knitting. Not even a babe in the woods. Haven't fallen off the turnip truck yet.

Just for fun, I googled "Why was Epstein arrested". I backed out of that pretty fast. When I started seeing "Zionist" in the text, I knew I was in another world.

The house hunter beach shows helped, and the temperatures on the thermometers are beginning to converge, both above 92. But it's a lot better world than the place I peeked into earlier.

^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Aug 12 00:21:46 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Ergoshakes, Esther, Kay, Maki Maus, and SpikeLVR!

R.I.P. Gray

wolfguard - But not Chinese, Italian, or Byzantine? *sniff* Some of it is speculation, but a lot of it is on the record. Yet perpetrators remained holding respected positions. Is it more complicated, or are they being protected? Or both? Consider the Harvey Weinseins and the Jeffrey Epsteins of the world, and how they flourish(ed). It could make one an armchair cynic. *g*

And yet, the most important thing to me right this moment is that it is a quarter past seven and the east outside thermometer reads 96.4 and the west one reads 99. August in Texas. I haven't even seen deer wandering around.

I think I'll watch house hunter shows set on beaches, and try to imagine the ocean breeze.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Aug 11 23:21:09 2019 [Edit/Delete]

Good Evening Beta


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Aug 11 23:19:53 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Good Evening beta!

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Aug 11 15:27:31 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Sunday, August 11th 2019 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!

Gray - R.I.P
Maki Maus

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Ergo shakes, esther, Kay, Maki Maus SpikeLVR

Angel: If I'm not back in a couple of hours Gunn: You're dead, we're screwed, end of the world. 'Inside Out'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Aug 11 14:41:40 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Good morning beta!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Aug 11 08:55:49 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

You appear to share both a Russian and Arab sense for conspiracy. *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Aug 11 05:01:05 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - Of course there will be an investigation. The case seems to be the province of some NY prosecutor's office. What they want revealed will be revealed, and what they want buried they will keep buried. If they have to jail innocent men to protect the guilty, they will do so, just as the FBI did when they wanted to hide crooked dealings with Whitey Bulger. Eventually some truth came out, but two of the victims died in prison first. I don't know if anything bad happened to the FBI agents involved. Yes, I'm tarring them all with the same brush, but they seem cut from the same cloth. *g*

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Aug 11 04:39:05 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sun Aug 11 04:41:08 2019
White Wings,

I do not think the investigation into Epstein's criminal past is over.

"You think you know what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun."

- Tara to Buffy in Restless

This episode does not have a teaser. It opens with the Main Title.


^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Aug 11 03:36:34 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday dualslayers, JSG, and LittleFearDemon!

Christopher Marlowe - Well ... it was my first thought, but I wasn't going to go there aloud. Since others did, I found it amusing. *g* In truth, I'm not really sure that it's more than very convenient for the Clintons. There may have been financial dealings or trips to the island (according to plane logs) which would be embarrassing, but I doubt that legal jeopardy will come out. I don't think that the women coming out now have named Bill. Even if you believe the worst, which I am most willing to believe, Bill and Hill seem rather faded and I'm not sure they would have the reach.

wolfguard - It sounds like if someone weren't suicidal before, being on suicide watch for any length of time would make him so. There have been suspicions about the first alleged suicide attempt, as in finger marks around his neck. But if someone attacked him, either he didn't speak of it or any one he spoke to has buried the information. Certainly he wouldn't be the first man who preferred death to a life he couldn't stomach. But it was awfully convenient. Those women were naming a whole lot of people. I still suspect the prosecutors opened up a can of worms they couldn't keep contained.

I found your video on swords and sheaths and carrying them on the back very entertaining. I went on to some of the adjacent videos. You know, I've read things, possibly in stories, about knights having superior sets of "riveted chain mail", but I never knew what it meant, or where the rivets were or why they were better. Now I do. I knew from simple beading about soldered rings vs. open rings vs. split rings. Rivets would seem a stronger technique than soldering, but not useful for jewelry-sized rings. I also know more about protection from cutting swords but not piercing arrows (sometimes). Then there were discussions of hardened plate armor, which made sense, because I've had a farrier talk about making some exceptionally durable shoes with that technique. And of course why they started with swords and finished with a dagger.

His sheath, which allowed him to have an excellent elegant draw, does not translate to the Highlander swords being drawn from under a long coat that concealed the sword completely from the eyes of mere mortals. But if it can be worn over the clothing, and slightly angled, then it certainly does allow for sitting. The running was funny.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Aug 11 02:08:14 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe & White Wings,

I was listening to a corrections professional being interviewed on CNN or
FOX (actually I've now heard two or three experts). He said the following

1 - Suicide watches usually only last 24-48 hours.

2 - Because a proper suicide watch involves 24-hour observation of the
person with log recordings every ~15 minutes, e.g. inmate is laying on his
right side on the bed). It's expensive. In his careeer he had done suicide
watches and made ~$400-$600 for a shift's work.

3 - The person under the suicide watch is in a cell consisting of a toilet,
sink, platform bed. The person is given a "suicide blanket" for the bed (a
blanket than cannot be made into a ligature or rope).

4 - Depending on the person's behavior, he may be allowed more items, such
as eating utensils.

5 - If they are keeping a person under observation, but not a suicide watch,
then they look into the cell every 30 minutes. If the inmate shares a cell,
then if they get ill, injured, or try to commit suicide then their cellmate
will usually bang on the cell to get the guards' attention. OTOH, if they
are in a single cell, then the inmate would have time to kill themselves
between checks.

6 - He spoke about some New York jail or prison saying it does not have
cameras looking inside cells, but had cameras looking down the walkways to
check on the guards. *g*

On hearing the news, 'hit-man' and 'conspiracy' flashed in my mind. And next
I thought, a man who lived as he had lived probably could not stomach a life


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Aug 11 01:50:52 2019 [Edit/Delete]
white wings I'm not so sure
we will get the full answer either.
But I do have to say that I don't
think it was the Clintons, as I see
some postulating.

^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Aug 11 00:56:13 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe - He was, but he was taken off of suicide watch about 12 days ago, and transferred to a setting where things could more easily happen without being recorded. There are some people 'splaining that pedophiles often commit suicide, but I thought that they even more often met sticky ends at the hands of others. I don't have stats, though.

Why NYC decided to prosecute Epstein for already (if really badly) adjudicated crimes, I don't know. Either he made someone angry or they thought he was a way to get at Trump, which seems to be their entire reason for living these days. When that failed, give or take a cabinet member, they realized that some of their own were put at risk. The whole thing stinks like the transfer of Whitey Bulger. He evidently thought he was going to a medical setting, while the official channels were complaining of his difficult behavior as an excuse for transferring him to where waiting inmates could kill him. I don't believe that was ever satisfactorily explained. No one is mourning him, but I don't like unofficial government murders either.

But it could really have been a suicide. I'm willing to bet we'll never learn differently. It's more productive to have a discussion of RIGHT! Alive!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Aug 10 22:42:30 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sun Aug 11 01:48:59 2019
wolfguard, white wings I had thought Epstein was on suicide watch, so
the cause of his death seems questionable.

^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 10 20:58:53 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Third hand quote: "The person most surprised by Jeffrey Epstein's suicide was
Jeffrey Epstein."

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 10 18:49:24 2019 [Edit/Delete]
"Jeffrey Epstein dies after apparent hanging in hail cell." - CNN Live


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 10 06:02:51 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

In this video...

The man begins by looking at why swords need sheaths and some ways of
carrying a sword and sheath on the back. Beginning around 10:30 he lists and
demonstrates some activities best done with a back sheath (sprinting,
crawling, climbing, wading in water, and the like). I found his sprint down
the street amusing and impressive. *g*

I suspect people used more than one way depending on the situation. I can
imagine some people wouldn't always carry a sword on them, again depending
on the situation (maybe a dagger or short sword or spear or axe or bow and

I do not know how Samurai carried swords in their daily life. When I've seen
pictures or demonstrations of people using katana (standard sword), the
sword is carried in a sheath that appears to be slipped between a sash or
belt and the body. The edge of the blade is suppose to face up. This allows
the person to merge the draw of the blade with slash or cut. I forgot the
term or phrase, but this draw and slash is the Japanese equivalent to our
Western fast draw. *g*


Not only is chain mail older than plate, it's heavier. The plate armor in a
single suit could vary in thickness depending on what needed to be protected
and to accommodate movement. The armorer sought to find the optimal mix that
would protect the wearer with the minimum of weight.

Side note: In Search for Solutions, Judson, the author, said scholars
have mistaken the average height of medieval knights, because they had used
surviving armor as a proxy for lack of actual measurements. Here's Judson
reasoning ...

- The first suit of armor a knight or knight-to-be receives is when he is
still growing. Consequently it eventually gets put aside and goes unused.
Going unused it survives time's passing. The armor the knight wears as an
adult gets beaten and weathered, repaired and replaced. We tend to see only
bits and pieces of adult armor. So says Judson. *g


^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 10 02:46:51 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday BISHOP, Catalina, hunnie, Jennifer, Natalie, NightDreamer, Rollagirl, SetzJS, Silverfox, Slayergrl99, and Zeus!

DaddyCatALSO - I wouldn't think that you'd need to know someone to forgive a misstep. If not being a close acquaintance prevented one from realizing that something was a misstep rather than actual malice, or if one suffered irretrievable harm, that would likely make a difference. Otherwise, to not forgive a mistake that one realizes is a mistake, no matter the degree of acquaintance, seems harsh to me.

wolfguard - Your Emory tapestry must have been designed by or for someone with a sense of humor (and a dog). *g* Seriously though, you wouldn't just cart a sword around in your hand all the time, and you'd want a scabbard to protect it. As for the position, we have limited options. If you are on foot it's almost got to be at your hip or slung across your back. I just don't believe in long things hanging vertically from the back of your neck if you intend to sit down, and if someone carried a sword slung diagonally across the back under an overcoat, they'd have to take off the coat to draw it. This would seriously detract from the appearance of menace and grace on the screen. A samurai could proudly wear a sword wherever he liked. If you were on horseback, you certainly wouldn't want a scabbard tapping across your horse's flank, and the horse would either object or take it as a signal you hadn't meant to give. That might well be mitigated if the clothing of the horse protected it, and horses often wore some kind of armor as well.

Agent Cooper, wolfguard, DaddyCatALSO - I did a brief google of medieval armor, although it took a while to get past the modern versions for sale. *g* If what I read was correct, I've had a number of misconceptions about the stuff. I'd always thought that chain mail replaced the bulky plate armor, and apparently it was just the reverse. Actually I'm not sure why I thought that, since it doesn't fit with other things, but grade school history and Ivanhoe are a long way behind me. I read today that the chain mail would (usually) protect against a sword, but not an arrow. Apparently plate armor also didn't protect against arrows, although I had always had a notion that it would protect against arrows from the standard bows, but the longbows were problematic, and crossbows were considered really lower class because they would allow a peasant to pierce a knight. Firearms were even worse, from a class-based POV.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 10 00:42:27 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sat Aug 10 01:03:31 2019

All of my experience with actually using a sword for sparring or
choreographing fights has been with bokkens, the Japanese wood sword. In all
these cases I carried the bokken in my hand to the place where it would be

Much of my knowledge on rapiers - though not all *g* - comes from Clement's
Renaissance Swordsmanship. Clement's views are controversial. That
said and as I remember it, Clements wrote the rapier is entirely meant for
dueling, its form reflecting dueling realities.1

As you noted, battle-swords usually are capable of slashing and hacking as
well as stabbing, though I don't believe 'broadsword' captures all the
variations of battle swords.

Google 'spear vs sword'. One of the historical fighting groups ran some 60
(?) experiments pitting swords against spears. Spears usually won. *g*

1 I have a translation of CapoFerro's Italian Rapier
. I believe its drawings of rapier fighting were done in the 16th
century. I don't have the book at hand, but I don't remember any of the
duelists wearing anything in which to carry the sword. If duels were
scheduled, then this makes sense, the rapiers being carried to the dueling
site or the sheath, etc. being set aside for the duel.

ETA HARD STOP! I've just listened to this video ...

... on the rapier. The speaker says while the rapier was used for dueling it
was all a military arm carried by all sorts of soldiers. Long, heavy, and
specialized for thrusting. The 'small sword' was the specialized dueling
sword favored by gentlemen. That actually makes some sense. Many folks who
carry a handgun for self-defense often choose a small, light one that's easy
to carry and conceal. People who expect to have to fight carry a heavy
rifle. *g*


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 9 23:44:11 2019 [Edit/Delete]
DaddyCatALSO Well, I've
sometimes gotten misdirected calls
and they usually apologize and I
saw 'no problem'.

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Fri Aug 9 18:18:32 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Is it possible for someone you really don't know to forgive you for a misstep, or does forgiveness require acquaintance on some level?

^ v
Mr Charles says:
(Fri Aug 9 17:49:08 2019 [Edit/Delete]
so sad to lost a friend and husband

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Fri Aug 9 14:17:16 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Comma Sorry, I meant 16 inches. While the blade shape is sort of like a Bowie, it's meant more as a dagger for fighting than as an all-around tool. That's why the ring thumbguard and the raised pommel for pivot blows as well a s the knuckle duster handle.

wolfguard white wings Agent Cooper As I recall from books by Walter Buehr I read in junior high, for the big slashing longswords and broadswords used by barbarians and foot soldiers as well as mounted knights, having a scabbard dangle not from a belt but down the back attached to a baldric was not at all unusual. Saxon warriors were as concerned with tripping as actors are.
The rapiers used in duels were not especially used on the battle field. Usually in battle a backsword was used, heavier than a rapier with a good slashing edge but also light enough to use the point effectively unlike with long/broadswords

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Aug 9 13:47:45 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Friday, August 9th 2019 C.E.

We have NINE (9) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to BISHOP, Catalina, hunnie, Jennifer
Natalie, NightDreamer, Rollagirl, SetzJS, Silverfox, Slayergrl99, Zeus

Angel: If I'm not back in a couple of hours Gunn: You're dead, we're screwed, end of the world. 'Inside Out'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 9 13:28:08 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Good morning beta! It's friday!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 9 07:41:51 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

Horses don't like getting whacked by swords. *g*


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Aug 9 07:25:35 2019 [Edit/Delete]
As the middle ages came to a close,
the introduction of gun powder and
changes in military tactics made
heavy armor obsolete. Subsequently
swords became lighter and shorter
and hip scabbards became practical
for the average renaissance bravo
with a chip on his shoulder to
stroll around town with, looking
for a fight.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Aug 9 07:14:19 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard/Whitewings - European
knights of the middle ages were on
horseback most of the time. A
heavy longsword in a hip scabbard
wasn't a hindrance to them. They
never walked anyplace and didn't
fight on their feet unless they
were forced to.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 9 06:26:24 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Fusiliers by Mark Urban and Doughnut Economics by Kate Raworth.

White Wings,

In Emory University's main library there is a tapestry of a knight wearing, I
believe a tunic over chain mail. He's wearing a scabbard off the hip. What
makes me believe it's probably historically accurate is the dog at his feet
who is chewing on the scabbard. *g*

I also came across an period drawing of a Samurai wearing his sword across his
back. I tried to copy the link, but seem to have failed.


^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Aug 9 03:45:55 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday @lex H, DreamingHawk, IceFire, pippistrell, Rainbow, and ravynhawk!

Christopher Marlowe - I hope the music was good, the night was cool, and the skeeters were elsewhere!

DaddyCatALSO - Well, when you introduce magic, all the rules go out the window. *g*

wolfguard - That make sense about wearing swords to the side. The Highlander (of the TV series) often seemed to pull his sword out of his duster rather than drawing it out of a concealed sheath. It was almost as though the sword was attached to the coat rather than himself, but surely that makes no sense, because the coat would hang totally lopsided (if the sword were actually made of metal *g*). It would still get in the way. The problem with drawing the sword out from their back is that these characters aren't always standing. Those long swords would make sitting down distinctly problematic. I might have to fall back on movie magic.

As it happens, I do have a snippet to contribute. I'd forgotten that I had asked my brother about the soldiers holding a sabre at Bush Sr.'s funeral, and having no scabbard. He didn't reference the physical awkwardness, but his answer brought out the issue of sound:

"The person with the sabre is guiding the March of the formation. Usually an NCO or junior officer. No sheath needed because the sword will never be sheathed during the ceremony and makes noise. The sabre is used as a mark of command - probably goes back to chivalric customs (I'd guess French but not sure - via Norman control of England etc). Also the sabre is easy to see by a large group of people."

Agent Cooper - I'm told that when security background checks are done, anyone who ever saw the person might possibly be questioned, or it feels like it. That's one thing. A gun is a little different, it's something you don't want the criminal world to be aware of. Of course, if the neighbors aren't questioned, something could be missed. In a city setting, where people often keep themselves to themselves, it might glean little and harm much. The further you get out of dense populations, the more likely you are to actually find people who know someone or who are sufficiently, ah, "alert" to know a fair amount about the subject, who he sees, and when he comes and goes. It's amazing how much people you never see off a lonely road actually know about when you come and go. *g*

I saw something about the El Paso guy's mother having called, but I thought that she never really identified herself or the cause of her worry. The cops just let her know she didn't have any control over her 21 year old son's ownership. People call the police about the darndest things. With city people moving out to the country around here, they've reported calls about people upset about cows being out in a pasture in the rain. They might have put this call down to a gun-phobic parent and just quoted the law. But it was interesting that she called. Neither shooter was a squeaky clean kid.

The Dayton shooter obtained his weapon secretly and illegally. Neither a red flag law nor a background check would have topped him, nor would Draconian laws against possession. If the El Paso shooter had done the same thing, same result. If they couldn't get firearms, there are explosives, vehicles, or knives. Most of the laws being proposed are designed to prevent law abiding people from getting arms. I believe they are really intended as a step on the road to disarming the population. They won't stop most of the current or future criminals. I don't think that there's a lot of interest in the leaders of the anti-gun lobby in keeping guns from criminals, or we might not have Chicago or Baltimore, D.C. or NYC. I do wistfully think that it would be nice to make it difficult for psychopaths to do mass killings. The mental health angle might stop some, but your brainwashed true believer can be devious and clever. The things I want to avoid are disarming the population and creating a Chinese-style "social score".

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 9 03:37:13 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard What have you been reading lately?

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 8 23:45:40 2019 [Edit/Delete]
hope to be enjoying some outdoor
music tonight!

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 8 22:17:07 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: History
Question: Who was the first First Lady of the United States to win an Emmy Award?
Answer: Jacqueline Kennedy

Trivia master: Comma!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Aug 8 20:57:53 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings: I actually never thought of that. Yeah, that IS a major flaw, at least in some areas. I guess if you think about it is also kind of a major intrusion into somebody's privacy too. This is NYS though, home of the wildly popular SAFE act laws that are loved by all. :-)

Even so, I still think it's not a totally crazy idea to ask around with the neighbors a bit just to make sure the purchaser isn't some obvious unhinged lunatic.

On the OTHER other hand, I just read today that the El Paso shooter's mom called the police about her son a week before he killed all those poor folks down there. And the police did absolutely zip.

So maybe the whole idea is kind of a bust.

And anyway, like you say, bad guys and crazy people don't suhmit to background checks. They're going to get guns regardless.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 8 17:35:58 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Thu Aug 8 17:48:28 2019
White Wings,

Coincidentally, after reading your "...or reach over their backs, and pull
out a ridiculously long two-handed sword," I came across a ~20 minute
Youtube video of a prop guy (?) explaining why directors and crews do things
than may be criticized as unrealistic or unhistorical. He speaks on the
sword and sheath carried on the back. While it may be thought to be cool by
some, "coolness" was not the original or continuing reason why Hollywood
often does it that way. Here's how he explained it (my paraphrase) ...

1) Actors can find it difficult to move when wearing long a sword on their
side. It can get tangled in their legs or scenery or filming equipment.

2) Swords carried on the side often shift around causing continuity head-
aches (Wait, when Sir Galahad was talking, the sword was hanging there. Then
we see King Arthur talking and when the camera shifts back to Sir Galahad
the sword is hanging differently.

Additionally, the sword and sheath shifting around can sometimes effect how
the costume drapes and this can also cause continuity problems.

Consequently, Hollywood's directors and crews favor putting the sword on the
actor/character's back.

ETA I was once at a military academy (private high school) for some sort of
ceremony or presentation - don't remember forty plus years ago. *g* Anyway,
the cadet officers' dress uniforms included sabers worn on the side. When
these cadet officers were not in formation, they unbuckled the
sabers/sheaths and carried them, because it was a pain to walk around
wearing them.

Off this, the holster market thrives over people looking for the right
holster to meet their needs. For some folks, it's a quest. Some never find
the right one. (Hint! Usually the best fit is quality holster worn on a wide
belt on the right hip (left for lefties). Unfortunately these usually don't
conceal well. It's where most cops carry their primary handgun).


^ v
Comma says:
(Thu Aug 8 17:07:45 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Thu Aug 8 17:15:46 2019
Trivial Girl: I saw it on CBS-Jacqueline Kennedy gave a tour of the White House. Camelot at its best!

DaddyCatAlso: 18"? Tip to bolster or tip to pommel? While knuckle knives have more than a cutting/slashing/stabbing use, punching/hitting/hammering, I do not like them. I like a knife that I can easily change hands, and positions with. I prefer a 8" to 10" blade. I can do everything with it.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 8 15:11:06 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: History
Question: Who was the first First Lady of the United States to win an Emmy Award?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Aug 8 14:39:35 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Thursday, August 8th 2019 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!

@lex H

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to @lex H, DreamingHawk, IceFire, pippistrell, Rainbow, ravynhawk

Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings; shindig, dip, less mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage, and hootenanny, well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny. Oz, 'Dead Man's Party''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 8 14:31:36 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Good morning beta...i'm a little slow this morning!

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Aug 8 14:18:52 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard The Sabrina, gotcha!

white wings Your talk of swords and bows reminded me of a minor running joke in my fics. At some point, Harmony acquires a 16-inch knuckle knife with a raised pommel, thumbguard, magic so it never needs sharpening, and it's sharpened quarter of the way back on the upper side. As a vampire, she does tricks with it to intimidate opponents.) After she becomes a human again, (her favorite is tossing it straight up while keeping her eyes straight ahead, catching it without looking in reversed position, and re-=sheathing it. she doesn't do those tricks anymore, but she does retain a strange ability to keep the thing concealed, even when she's wearing skimpy outfits, and pull it out at a second's notice, baffling folks like Buffy and Angel.

^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Aug 8 04:54:31 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Missi, Missie, ScaryGodmother, and Spike4evr!

ShadowQuest - Still sawing the way out? I'm sorry. Thats where it's nice to have the National Guard to call on.

I thought that Buffy's crossbow in Prophecy Girl looked smaller than the one Giles used in Amends. It would have been more in proportion to her size, and the scene could concentrate on her rather than her weaponry.

Christopher Marlowe - I just dropped in. I dared to go have things done to my hair on my day off, and for that I received emails from work, triggering activity. Then there was a sunset constitutional when it had cooled down to 93. There was a certain degree of just sitting and thinking, or maybe just sitting, after that. *g*

I don't have brilliant foolproof thoughts about society. The CPS model might help, although if you've talked to parents who had them called because their child was having a tantrum, you might pause. Also you have to remember the times they were called to homes and left, when the children were later found chained and starved, and often dead. OTOH, I know someone whose husband's evil ex called them and coached the children, but that one backfired when one of the kids realized that he just might get his father put in jail, and the workers were sufficiently unimpressed with the evil ex that their reports were used in some legal actions. Still, if you catch a few people, it might be good. Jason Chaffetz suggested that juvenile records of violence and mental health problems not be sealed, so that the tracks of someone heading down a bad road aren't erased. I don't know how many people have been enabled to straighten up and lead a worthwhile life by having those records sealed, so there's no data.

I know you'll disagree with me about guns, but I'm inclined to think we need more out there, although in the hands of people educated in their use. Open carry, and concealed carry, have not resulted in wild shootouts here. Generally the people who have gotten concealed carry licenses have been very reliable. They have resulted in a few bad guys going down when they didn't expect it. I wouldn't be one of the ones carrying though. Not my area of competence. *g* I do know that I don't want to be in a place where the only people able to defend themselves are the government and the criminals. Ultimately, if the government does not respect the people, it will trample them.

I don't blame video games, but I do blame the Internet. A whole lot of people have gotten radicalized and brainwashed by groupthink on the internet, in the same way that people have been scammed and women lured by men who aren't what they say they are (or vice versa). It might be Antifa, Islamic Jihadists, or white supremacists. The orientation varies, but the actions always result in other people dying or at least being badly injured. I say this as I post it on the internet. *g*

I also blame parents who will do anything to get their kids out of trouble. I've been in neighborhoods where people were just hoping the spoiled kids who were vandalizing things would age out of living at home (back when kids left home). I see there was a grandmother up in north Texas who persuaded her grandson to go to the hospital, and called the police, who located preparations for a mass shooting. Of course he might turn around and murder her when he gets out of jail. But then, he might have done that anyway.

Which reminds me, I wonder where the dividing line between KKK and white supremacists is? I've always thought that the classic KKK stance was born out of the War between the States Civil War - other races in their places, against Jews and Catholics, and totally against any Republican (because the Republicans were coming down and encouraging voting, and running the Reconstruction). I associate white supremacists with the Neo-Nazis, and that movement came over from Europe. Clearly there's some ideological overlap, but I never thought they were the same, and that the KKK has been fading, where the other group seems to be breeding.

There, that's enough thinking. And still no conclusions. I don't think I'd be good in politics. Too wishy-washy to do anything.

Agent Cooper - I dunno about background checks that talk to neighbors. Maybe in the 'burbs, but it is also an advertisement that someone possesses a firearm that might be stealable. Then you've got the kind of checks that NYC does, where no one ever has sufficient reason to be allowed to have a firearm, but criminals can get them freely. There's a lot of potential to get things messed up.

I always thought that Oz made the best of the bad choices he had, and he was dealing with conflicts in the story. In the metaphor, one could be more severe. But then, I was a lot older than Daughter Cooper when I first saw it. Also, I was never certain if Willow was more interested in Oz, or having a boyfriend in the band.

wolfguard - Crossbows seem to be more compact, and fit better into weapons bags. Of course regular bows could be like the miraculous swords that Immortals use. They just open their overcoats or reach over their backs, and pull out a ridiculously long two-handed sword, or some insanely sharp curved Samurai sword. Magic.

Interesting video. Legolas the Elf couldn't have done any better, except for his three-arrow technique for bringing down oliphaunts. *g* It does indicate some truth to whatever I read years ago that said that Indians using bows had an advantage over cavalry with single shot weapons.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 8 02:03:48 2019 [Edit/Delete]
anyone still hearabouts?

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Aug 7 22:55:31 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial PUrsuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who sang 'L.A. Song' on Angel?
Answer: Kane/Lindsey

Trivia Master: ShadowQuest!
Trivia ohsoclose: AGent Cooper!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 7 21:44:23 2019 [Edit/Delete]

It's certainly true that a crossbow makes a better club than does a regular
bow. Checked the posted links. I recall the foregrip being on one of her
crossbows. A foregrip can be a useful thing, but they can get hooked on
stuff. Very embarrassing to be running through the cemetery and the foregrip
gets caught by a gargoyle. *g*


I've read or heard it said that directors are fond of framing an actor's
face with a firearm in film shots. Some in the law enforcement world use to
refer to it as "The Sabrina" after Sabrina in Charlie's Angels. It's
considered dangerous for a person to carry a gun, because if there's an
accidental discharge the bullet will be moving in the vicinity of your face.

In the past years, directors have taken to angling the camera to look
towards the actor firing the gun. To get the actor's face framed in the shot
the director will have the actor tilt their head. For a right-handed shooter
this makes it look like the actor is aiming with their left eye.

WARNING: Most firearm instructors will tell you to keep both eyes open when
aiming, since many people instinctively close one eye.


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Aug 7 20:41:40 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard One reason Buffy uses crossbows so much is because Dr. Joss and His "Bunche" liked the way SMG looked holding them. (SOurce of the title of my fic about the calling of the 2026 Slayer, "Kind Hearts and Crossbows," referring to the support of her extended family versus her new destiny.)

Agent Cooper I agree that her experience w Oz shaped much of how she related to Tara, but even without the break-up. Willow's treatment of Oz always was idolatry-adjacent, whereas with Tar she went over that line. One of the things I like most about the 'ship with Kennedy is it's a chance for Willow to love someone *without* turning said someone into a false god.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Aug 7 19:30:38 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard/Shadowquest: Yeah but I only ever see her bring one quarrel. I mean, MAYBE we could say she figures she'll only get one ranged attack in before closing to hand to hand anyway. Which now that I think of it usually happens.

^ v
ShadowQuest says:
(Wed Aug 7 19:25:21 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Zoom through

Trivia Girl

That one dude with the hair.

(Otherwise known as Christian Kane.)

wolfguard Ah, but a crossbow can be used as a bludgeoning tool after the bolts have been fired, or you're fumbling to get another one loaded and the vamp/demon is advancing.

Just gotta swing for the fences.

Or it can be used as a shield to hold off the attack until Buffy can slip in and kill said vamp/demon.

Now, the one she used in "Prophecy" appeared to have regular-length arrows, as opposed to the shorter bolts more commonly used on crossbows. ( She also had two mounted below the stock. Looks like a pistol grip, and a trigger further back.

Hard to tell if the one Giles had when he confronted Angel in his apartment was the same one or not:,f_auto,fl_strip_profile.lossy,q_auto:420/v1533005451/distrustful-buffy-the-vampire-slayer-s3e10.jpg

Another angle on Buffy's "Prophecy" crossbow:

Quite a bit different from a medieval crossbow.

Zoom, zoom

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 7 18:56:57 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Shooting a bow fast ...


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Aug 7 18:25:34 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings & DaddyCatALSO,

I've been rethinking on Buffy's use of a crossbow. A bow provides mechanical
advantage, what I believe White Wings referred to as ~amplifying.
Since this is true for a person with average strength it should also be true
for a person with uber-strength. However, for a slayer to benefit from such
amplification the bow would have to be built to reflect this uber-strength.
For instead of having say, a 60-pound pull a slayer crossbow would have 100-
pound plus pull. This much pull would be overkill for most American game
animals, but I imagine some demons might have tough, armor-like skin or
bones protecting vital organs.1

That said, I still have questions about using a crossbow over a straight bow
(stick or compound). Crossbows tend to be easier for most people to use
effectively, but Buffy is a professional fry cook (see Doomed). A
crossbow can be loaded and carried (not sure if it can be slung when
'loaded'), but a regular bow can be carried with the arrow mounted and
nocked - all you have to do is draw the string back. I bet Buffy could draw
a bowstring back really quick. Regular bows can be fired faster than
crossbows. A bow might be designed that was less conspicuous, at least to a
casual glance. Crossbows shout Renaissance Faire. Moreover, pop-on some
pointed ear prosthetics and Buffy could pose as a fairy warrior. Try that
with a crossbow.

It's time Buffy tossed the crossbow and shopped for a set of regular bows
... Damn, I just thought of an advantage of a crossbow over a regular bow.
In theory your crossbow's 'bow' would be detachable from the stock and you
could have several bows in different draw weights.

1 Vampires, being housed in human bodies, can be taken down with
lighter pull bows. For that matter, we've seen vampires dusted with pencils.
Perhaps Buffy should consider a blow-gun? These would be very easy to hide.
I remember a friend in middle school who bought a blowgun from the Cherokee
reservation in NC. The darts were made of wood, but easily stuck in a wood
shield (fired from ~20 feet away through a foot or two blowgun). It might
even be possible to build collapsible or detachable, segmented blow guns.
Buffy could have carried one in her school knapsack. I can see a scene now

A vampire infiltrates a high school dance. Isolates a student in a hallway.

Stand in front of me, Will.

Buffy places a small blowgun over Willow's shoulder, takes aim, Poof!

David? (cough, cough) David?



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Aug 7 14:32:30 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl: The Kinks!

White Wings: Yeah, but Daughter Cooper basically put all the blame on Oz. She went into full Protective Girl Friend Mode. :-) But she's young and missed a lot of the nuance of the situation. Oz was in a bad place and only had lousy options in front of him if he wanted to do the right thing, and to his credit, he did make the correct, but painful, choices.

I believe fully that Willow's breakup with Oz influences her bad behavior later on with Tara. She's so terrified of anybody leaving her again, she'll do anything to protect herself and that's her justification for some bad choices of her own.

White Wings/Chris Marlowe: I live in NYS. Last year my neighbor bought a handgun. I know this because the police came to our door and told us. It was actually kind of weird. The cops knocked on the door and told us our neighbor had applid for a gun permit. Then they asked us about him, just some general questions like was he okay, did he ever seem hostile or weird, etc. (He's has not.)

It was a bit awkward, the cops looked kind of uncomfortable doing it too. But I think this is a good idea to ask around just to make sure as part of the background check when somebody buys a firearm.

Will it help much in the grand scheme of things? Probably not much. Bad people don't care about laws and will get a gun anyway. But still, it's something.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Aug 7 13:54:24 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial PUrsuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who sang 'L.A. Song' on Angel?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Aug 7 13:37:28 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Wednesday, August 7th 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Missi, Missie, ScaryGodmother, Spike4evr

Angel: If I'm not back in a couple of hours Gunn: You're dead, we're screwed, end of the world. 'Inside Out'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 7 13:16:18 2019 [Edit/Delete]
white wings Yeah, I can see all sorts of problems. What gets my goat is politicos blaming video games, when that has been refuted time and time again. Blaming everything but the people and the guns.

^ v
ShadowQuest says:
(Wed Aug 7 07:37:44 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Late-night zoom through

white wings Latest update on
the storm damage:

We were very fortunate that the
damage here wasn't as bad. I can't
imagine what the people in the areas
hit worse are going through.

Zoom, zoom

^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Aug 7 03:51:56 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Lovecraft, Mr. Happy, and TreeLady!

Agent Cooper - These stories speak to everyone in different ways. Poor Oz didn't have the Miracle Snow of Redemption to dissuade him. Now I think of it, Willow was such a control freak when she was desperate that she might have come up with an anti-wolfing out spell. But the story didn't go in that direction.

Christopher Marlowe - You are right that some things need to be handled carefully. Mental illness doesn't in and of itself lend itself to mass murder. Everything is individual. If you make a law and enforce it, you are apt to crush some people and skip over others where there is inflexibility. If you allow for a lot of flexibility, you are relying on people, and people can make mistake.

Red flag laws are subject to the same problem. A terrified woman says her ex is stalking her and has threatened to shoot her. Fine, take away his guns. But what's to keep him from running her down with his car? So you put him in prison or a mental facility without much due process. If you apply a lot of due process, she may be dead before it's finished. But what about the vindictive woman whose ex is innocent? That happens, too. Now he's imprisoned, castigated, has the stigma of incarceration, and the hell bitca is out on the street. Are we going to let shrinks decide innocence or guilt? Probably not the greatest idea.

A state hospital in Texas had a repeat client who was checking himself in voluntarily, and therefore could leave. The staff knew that he had potential for violence and was mean, and needed to be in the hospital. But they didn't go for an involuntary commitment, because if the judge didn't grant it, he'd never come back. One fine day he discharged himself, murdered his wife, and cut her up with a skilsaw that he'd learned to use in the workshop. Staff guessed wrong.

Time was a family member could commit someone for almost anything. Alcoholism, walking through the house muttering, chasing someone with a knife, being deaf, what have you, and they might stay in a state facility for the rest of their lives, because they'd become so institutionalized that they couldn't function outside. The state had 30,000 people in state hospitals and schools at any given time back in the early 70s. I think that finances had more sway than compassion in trying to get people out into the community for service, but there was some compassion. So they also passed laws saying that there had to be a commitment hearing, with advocates and shrinks and a judge. So then people found that when they knew someone was bat-xxxx crazy, they couldn't just call the men in white coats.

Then we found that the drying out period for substance abuse went from 90 days in the hospital to 3 hours in the drunk tank. People would do a round robin between the city jail, the VA hospitals, medical hospitals, sometimes the mental hospitals, and round again to the jail. They were really helped not.

The forensic units at the state hospitals actually do a pretty good job of getting people who are off their heads stabilized, but get someone out on their own afterwards, and they are apt to go off meds. Now the prisons are providing some services, and at least some of the meds. The meds do make a difference. After the current anti-psychotics were developed, the characteristics of people in the prison system who had also been in our clutches changed. Schizophrenia used to be the largest population, followed by bipolar, and then by major depresson. Now the order is bipolar, major depression, and schizophrenia is way at the end.

But I've carefully rambled away from mass murderers. We also have the examples of Chicago and Baltimore, which I heard called "Murdermore" the other day. The murder rate is alleged to be higher than Honduras, and that takes some doing. They have gun laws. It's very hard for the law abiding people to defend themselves, and the gangs have no trouble at all. I also remember Venezuela, which was disarmed by the comrades in charge. I am very suspicious of gun laws. But we could do something differently. Perhaps the CPS model could work. But it won't work in the Chicago or Baltimore environment.

I am still (after an increasing number of years) enraged that our DMV used to sell people's data to third party outfits. Driver's license information, names, addresses, the lot. A woman was killed by a stalker who tracked her via third party databases. And they kept on selling the data. Another woman was killed. Finally the legislature banned the practice, though I'm not convinced they aren't still doing it in one way or another. That's not mental illness. That's a bureaucracy at work.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Aug 7 01:26:36 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper CPS is a good example, another I always see is 'if you see something, say something'.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Aug 7 00:59:51 2019 [Edit/Delete]
And yes, before someone else says
it, CPS system is far from perfect.
They have dropped the ball at
times. We've all heard the
horrible stories but I figure this
could be a start and better than
the system we have now, which is
nothing basically.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Aug 7 00:54:49 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Maybe there could be a hotline to
call if you think someone you know
is planning to hurt people people.
And that would trigger the
authorities to follow up swiftly on
the tip. Sort of the way it
happens when somebody calls CPS.
I'm spitballing here but I think
something like that maybe could be
put in place.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Aug 7 00:49:41 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Chris Marlowe. -- Yes the red flag
laws are a great idea. I'm not
sure how they would work exactly,
but if they encourage people to
come forward and raise some kind of
alarm before a tragedy happens that
would be a big help.

^ v
CristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Aug 6 23:34:08 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Wed Aug 7 01:23:53 2019
Agent Cooper I think there is a mental block somehow. We've all heard the old saw about serial killers being the 'quiet' sort. It's difficult for folks to believe that someone they know could make that leap from words to action.

OTOH, the mental angle needs a careful approach. I have many a friend and family post about dealing with being bipolar, ADHD or suffering depression. I don't think you can tie a specific mental illness to likelihood of gun violence, and you would have to create some big database of who has what illness for that to work. That certainly won't go down well.

I think these red flag law maybe useful to a limited extent.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Aug 6 23:28:51 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: Who or what killed
Principal Flutie?
Answer: students (aka the Pack)

Trivia Pack leader: notsoShyGirl!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Aug 6 21:36:03 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Last two nights watched "Beer Bad" and "Wild at Heart" with Daughter Cooper.

DC like Beer Bad. It is a pretty humorous ep and she got alot of satisfaction out of Buffy whacking Parker on the head with that branch.

"Wild at Heart" she struggled with, she ended up being very angry and Oz. We had a bit of a discussion about it, where I tried to explain that it was a complicated situation, but DC was having none of that. She blamed Oz for everything and felt he was wrong for leaving Willow. Even after I tried to introduce the idea that Oz was protecting Willow by leaving. I think maybe some of the issues there were above her emotional understanding level, or whatever you call it.

Anyway, still having fun with the rewatch.

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Aug 6 14:16:08 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper wolfguard white wings Well, as far as I know Buffy diid usually seem to have reloads on her crossbow. the Master wwas just too fast to stake that way.
In my time-travel fic, I took it into consideration, since attacks from all a sides and or large numbers were possible. So when Kennedy a nd Chao Ahn with Watcher Lydia went to help Cochise, I gave them Chinese-style repeating crossbows, Ditto Wesley when he and Willow went to help Bill Cody; he had 3 12-shot 36 caliber revolvers

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Tue Aug 6 14:07:02 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
The Pack, a gang of bullies
possessed by demonic hyenas.

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Tue Aug 6 13:36:33 2019 [Edit/Delete]
ChristopherMarlowe, wolfguard--No law will replace common sense, which
seems to be in short supply these days.

The Sandy Hook shooter had mental health issues and yet his mother, a gun
enthusiast, kept guns in the house. Did she never consider that her hobby may
cause harm to her son at the very least and therefore she should sell her

The Waffle House shooter had mental health issues and his guns were taken away
and given to his father. Who then gave them back when he moved to Tennessee,
because, as we all know, moving to another state cures mental illness--WTH? The
father is being charged with a felony, which I imagine is small solace to the
family and friends of the four people his son killed.

Think, people, think!

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Aug 6 12:32:46 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: Who or what killed Principal Flutie?

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Aug 6 12:13:29 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard: Oops. Typo. .50 cents. We're talking tiny rubber band powered crossbows here. Hmmm...But in hindsight maybe I was undercharging them. Darn.

This whole shooting thing is so messed up. 46 people where shot in Chicago just last WEEKEND. That's TWO DAYS. A hospital ER there had to stop taking patients because it had too many shooting victims to deal with. And that's an average weekend in Shy Town. Over 1500 shootings have happened in Chicago this far. And it's only August.

Where is the big media hyped up outrage about that? Where are the candleight vigils? Where are the calls for more gun regulations in there?

There aren't because there can't be. Because Illinois has very strict gun laws already, and the city of Chicago has even more regulations on top of those. It's very hard to obtain the permit to own or carry there as it is. The vast majority of the shootings in Chicago are gang related, and almost all of those are black on black crime. Therefore the violence there can't be used for political gain and is ignored.

The media instead ignores THOSE shootings and sensationalizes these things when they happen elsewhere so they can use a pile of dead bodies as a political football, with which to further an agenda cloaked in concern for citizens but that in reality has nothing to do with the public's safety. It's really twisted.

Red flag laws are a great idea on paper, but if you want a gun you'll get one. Criminals and madmen don't care about laws.

I do notice that in many cases, especially when this happens at a school, alot of people around the shooter, parents, teachers, classmates, etc. all know well in advance that the individual has problems and is dangerous, and nobody is surprised that so-and-so went crazy and killed people ---but nothing ever seems to be done about that before the guy opens fire.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Aug 6 12:11:43 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Tuesday, August 6th 2019 C.E.

We have THREE (3) Birthdays!

Mr. Happy

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Lovecraft, Mr. Happy, TreeLady,

My whole life, I've never loved anything else. Oz, 'Wild at Heart'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 6 02:56:04 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

Dawn had a problem with a crossbow and a cat. You are in good company. *g*

Your grade school classmates had $50 to spend on home-made crossbow?!


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Aug 6 02:33:42 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Tue Aug 6 02:54:45 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

I've no position of "red flag" laws. Executing one appears to require a sequence of people agreeing it's needed (the petitioner, a judge, a mental health professional (?). If a person commits a "hate" crime does that by itself denote they are mentally ill? Is being stupid a sign of mental illness? Seriously. Exactly what does a person want to achieve in killing and maiming a large number of people? When the man ran over and killed ~80 people in Nice, France, his reasoning can be explained: (1) Revenge against the West, (2) Warning the West, (3) Hoping to push French citizens to pressure the government to do what the terrorist's group wants. OTOH, what does a person think to gain in killing elementary school kids or slaughtering 50 people attending an outdoor concert?

I believe there were signs that the young man was mentally ill before he killed the school children. I also remember his mother knew her son's behaviors were beyond normal. I do not believe anyone has yet found signs that would have indicated the man who slaughtered the concert goers was mentally ill.

Again, 'red flag' may have some use, but it's not by itself going to stop mass shootings/killings. It would have no use against a terrorist with political aims.

ETA: I was avoiding using the names of two shooters above. I might better have used the names of the locations: Sandy Hook and the Mandalay Resort. I 'know' the young man was mentally ill, but I've no idea how he saw the world lead him to do what he did. I don't know if the shooter in Mandalay Resort killings was mentally ill, unless we define a sociopathy as mental illness. I've read and listened to psychologists who have said (some) sociopaths have no conception of emotion - or perhaps more accurately feeling. They might understand 'feeling' or 'emotion' intellectually, but they can no more perceive it than a color-blind person can see certain colors. So would this condition constitute mental illness?


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Aug 6 00:54:23 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard I just heard for
the first time today about these
'red flag' laws.

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Aug 6 00:46:47 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Greeneyes Daughter, Jack on the Box, nails, Pagan, Servalan, Starr, viper420, and Willow's Gimp!

Agent Cooper - Didn't Miss Kitty Fantastico meet a sticky end after a crossbow incident?

Crossbows and slingshots aren't trivial as weapons go. Still, you escaped without anyone being injured. My brother had some episodes as a teenager, some of which both of us might not have survived. He's grown into a very sober and safety conscious adult, and his youthful adventures (and lectures thereon) may have helped lead to that result. But I have wondered, after hearing of other young men's escapades, why any of you survived to adulthood. It may be survival of the luckiest. *g*

Buffy's crossbows had holders for 3-4 spare darts, IIRC.

wolfguard - You missed some pleasurable experiences with a well-made double gun, but your preferences seem to be for rifles and handguns, so perhaps you didn't miss that much. I was fortunate in that my father loved shotguns with good balance. He favored over and unders, but indulged my preference for side by sides. I might have benefitted from his not being very strong - he had polio sometime in in 49-50, and worked his way out of total paralysis on his left side. I think we both found it easier to carry a gun that could break open, and less tiring to shoot one with balance, although he kept a semi-automatic for some kinds of shooting, in large part because of the reduced recoil. He also customized our shell loaders for a lighter load for our skeet shooting. I might have found the semis easier if I'd ever had one with a stock that was fitted, but well I really enjoyed shotguns with pretty stocks and engraved receivers. ;-)
Ah, the memories of yesteryear!

The slayers all seemed to enjoy weapons, even if they made do with whatever was at hand. Buffy's crossbow didn't seem all that complex, but I'm hardly a connoisseur. Still, remember that the Library weapons were Giles' second best weapons. ;-) Maybe what the slayers needed were some variant of spear-throwers (atlatl?) or just a slingshot, where the slayer's strength would be increased by the device.

I don't remember the ST:NG bridge having more than one elevator, but will accept correction.

lostinamerica - A crossbow is a distance weapon. It was effective when Buffy was on her back pointing a crossbow at Angel when she couldn't stake him without knowing why he'd gotten close to her. Cc: wolfguard, Agent Cooper

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Aug 5 22:41:31 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Phobias
Question: What do you fear if you
have Coulrophobia?
Answer: Clown

Trivia Knows no Fear: notsoShyGirl!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Aug 5 20:54:57 2019 [Edit/Delete]
The crossbow thing on Buffy drives me nuts. More than once as she's getting geared up to fight some hellacious monster, she'll rummage through her weapons bag and pull out her trust crossbow....with ONE bolt loaded in it. What happens after you fire that ONE shot Buff? For pete's sake, bring more AMMO!

I actually invented a little miniature crossbow in elementary school. I made it with rubber bands and curtain pin. It had a alot of power and could shoot a wet spitball pretty far. The other kids saw it and soon I had a little cottage industry mass producing them for $50 each. It was great. For a glorious few weeks I was the major arms supplier for the Woodlawn Middle School 4th grade. UNTIL things started getting out of hand. Alot of dumb kids were using them in class and some of them were shooting harder ammo than spitballs with them. Not long after that the principal found out who was making them. That was an unpleasant meeting and phone call home... :-)

Later on in high school I made a full size cross bow with a sturdy oak branch as the stock and nice green limb as the bow. I used darts for the ammo. To my surprise, it shot VERY hard and had an impressive range. The dart needle would get stuck in trees so deep they were hard to get out. This thing was actually dangerous. I nearly killed my cat with it by accident once and took it apart after that because it made me nervous.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 5 18:48:12 2019 [Edit/Delete]

I'd not really thought about Buffy using a crossbow till last night.
Negligence on my part. *g* I assume the writers used it when they wanted to
emphasize Buffy was facing a something bit more dangerous than your garden
variety vampire. A crossbow may have used when Buffy needed to make a
threat. For instance, when she confronted the military commander in the
Initiative she used a one-hand crossbow. The officer, given that he saw
Buffy as just a girl, may have found a crossbow more threatening that a wood
stake. Since Buffy was out to persuade and not kill him, the crossbow was
more useful.


There is a big retail market for knives and similar cutlery that look
"cool". The people who buy them are probably motivated by its appearance
than by its functional traits. The Mayor bought his knife from a props guy
whose stock was chosen for appearance (and ease of use in filming).

A few problems with the scythe's design:

1) It's handle is too short for lopping heads. Buffy would be so close she
might as well stake her foe.

2) The blade is over-done. Much of it serves little purpose except perhaps
the purpose of a make peacock's feathers - too impress.

3) A standard technique for a battle axe is a short chop from port arms.
This works against humans, not so much vampires (though may work against
some other demons). But, Buffy never used this technique, she swung it a lot
and its short length didn't capitalize on swinging.

4) The pointy end was useful, but again the short staff.

5) I just took a look at the scythe and there's a ~diamond shape hilt (?)
between the point and the blade. I imagine it's too serve as a hilt or a
stop, but it's too elaborate and might hamper quick manipulation of the

Summary: No designed for fighting. Designed to trigger tropes.


^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Aug 5 15:15:44 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Aug 5 14:12:49 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard You do know, I presume t oa ssume, the Jackal model knife the Mayor gave Faith was an off-the-shelf purchase, right?

As for the Scythe, well, it was obviously a battleax, a bit short-hafted for medieval combat but a good size for the modern world. And the wooden stake in the butt would be useful for a Slayer. What w ere your issues with it

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Mon Aug 5 12:45:15 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard--I would guess it
was #2, as in "Swahili is the only
African language I know of,
therefore it must be what most
people speak there and so we'll
use that" ;)

Oh well--I myself assumed the same
thing until I started working with
refugees from many different parts
of Africa.

And I don't have a problem
throwing in a few lines of a
different language here and there
if they're needed to tell the
story, as long as there are
subtitles :) I also prefer
foreign movies with subtitles over
foreign movies that are dubbed.

wolfguard, white wings--
Agreed, a Slayer using a crossbow
is dumb. But cool-looking :D

Happy Birthday nails!

Happy Belated Birthdays Adri,
gazoo, greengirl, sassyeggs

and Dianne!

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Aug 5 12:22:35 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Phobias
Question: What do you fear if you have Coulrophobia?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Aug 5 12:05:37 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Monday, August 5th 2019 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!

Greeneyes Daugher
Jack on the Box
Willow's Gimp

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Greeneyes Daughter, Jack on the Box, nails, Pagan
Servalan, Starr, viper420, Willow's Gimp

I'm not sure how old he is, but I heard him use the word 'newfangled' one time, so he's gotta be pretty far gone. Dawn, 'Real Me'''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 5 06:10:41 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Mon Aug 5 06:26:51 2019
White Wings,

Back in the day we once discussed shotguns. I had handled a few side-by-side
models made by CZ. Natural pointers. Impulse almost took over as I wanted to
buy one simply for the pleasure of how it handled. But I reined myself in.

Buffy's crossbows were a bit clunky in appearance, like some in special
effects nailed together some blocks of wood and called it workable. *g*
Thinking on it now, I'd think a slayer carrying a crossbow is asinine.
Follow ...

Slayers have tremendous strength and might be able to throw a stake or a
bolt or even a pencil with as much speed as a crossbow propels a bolt. If
so, then the only reason for using a crossbow is for better accuracy. OTOH,
Buffy did well enough throwing a stake into Sunday (The Freshman) so
why carry a bulky crossbow that takes up two hands? Buffy might have done
better carrying a pouch of throwing stakes/darts. I suspect someone didn't
think it through and went with the visual of cool weapon. But if we've going
for cool, then more work should have into her crossbow. *g*

Then again, I'm biases towards using weapons in entertainment that would
make sense in real life - or what real life would be like in a world of
demons and vampires. For instance, the scythe was not well designed.
Similarly the knife the Mayor gave as a present to Faith. Both could have
been designed better.

ETA Gene Roddenberry made a serious effort to create a starship that gave
the feel of being real. Too much effort for some of the suits at NBC (?) who
said, ~Just throw up some panels with blinking lights in the background and
get on with it (talking about the design of the bridge). But Roddenberry
believed the model and the interior sets had to project a sense of
purposeful design if viewers were to believe they were seeing the future.

That said, sometimes realities of production overrode design to reality. For
instance, think back to the original Enterprise - exterior view of
the ship, specifically the bridge section atop the saucer. At the back
there's a hump where the elevator shaft merged with the bridge. It's
directly behind the bridge.

Now envision the interior set of the bridge. Captain's chair and in front
the helmsman and navigator console and in front of them the screen. We
assume the captain, helmsman, and navigator's chairs all face directly
forward, because we face forward and we also assume the screen looks out.

I've done this detail, because if the interior set reflected the exterior we
see in the model of the ship, then the elevator shaft would be directly
behind the captain's chair and the door would open up behind the captain.
But this configuration did not work for camera angles so the elevator door
is slightly offset of the captain's chair. Back in the 70's I once had the
blueprints for Enterprise and for the bridge it shows the captain's
chair/helm console offset to be pointing a few degrees off from straight
ahead. Ridiculous, but accurate. *g*

Anway, as I remember Star Trek: The Next Generaiton, the solved the
problem by having two elevators serve the bridge, one to each side of the
captain's chair and the consoles.

1 Though being a screen it shows whatever images are directed
towards it, but we assume it usually shows what's ahead of the ship.


^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Aug 5 05:02:44 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday AmberSuzy, Bridget aka scotlore, Dianne, Heliotrope, Lizza Slayer, Kouros, Rikki, ruyen, and Tasma!

wolfguard - The instructions I found for loading a muzzle-loading revolver had a lot of warnings about not allowing any part of your body to be over the vertical barrel or cylinder. *g* The old style means you can also skip the step of buying or reloading shells. There are some disadvantages, of course.

LOL to the modern muzzle loaders! I don't think I'd heard about them, but it makes a lot of sense. Modern ammunition is certainly more reliable, surely a plus when hunting. I'm sure the pleasure in the sneakiness played no part whatsoever. ;-)

We all know what traditional crossbows look like. We've all watched our Buffy. *sniff* But I googled modern crossbows. Good lord, that thing might as well be a rifle. It will fit in the hunting niche as well, of course. LOL! to the websites!

I've never had anything to do with bows (aside from watching Robin Hood or grade B westerns as a young sprout), but yes, the modern varieties aren't very pretty. It's like a lovely sidelock shotgun compared to a featureless pump or semi. *g*

The dilithium is a problem. They did manage to recrystallize some in a well-documented Star Trek, but they had the original crystals to work with, and had to gather something or t'other from a nuclear reactor.

Comma - Have a care with those barrels. Proof-testing them is definitely in order.

Christopher Marlowe - It rained a little and barely hit 90. I napped very happily. That makes a pretty good Sunday for me. I imagine yours was more active?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 5 04:22:38 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

The Radioactive Boy Scout by Ken Silverstein.

The subtitle is "The frightening true story of a whiz kid and his homemade
nuclear reactor". *g*


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Aug 5 02:10:55 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Impressive!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Aug 5 01:02:10 2019 [Edit/Delete]
At 17, David Hahn built a nuclear reactor...

Young Taylor Wilson is focused on building a fusion reactor.

Myself, I have a working warp engine ... if only I could find some dilithium


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Aug 5 00:24:26 2019 [Edit/Delete]
I trust everyone had a super
Sunday! I know I did!

Comma Cool project, how did
you get started on it?

^ v
Comma says:
(Sun Aug 4 16:14:49 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Two things that are still on my bucket list: forge my own muzzle loader and make my own crossbow. While I have forged parts for several different weapons, and made new stocks for several, I have never made a barrel for one. I have made two bows, one in Boy Scouts and the other with nothing to do on an overseas assignment. I have the one that I made in Boy Scouts.

Now I am sitting down to study the components of a muzzle loader and a flintlock. I may be ready to start on one.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Aug 4 12:53:33 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Weekend birthdays to...

Andy Hallett as The Host Lorne Green
Bridget aka scotlore
Lizza Slayer

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Aug 4 07:18:14 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sun Aug 4 07:18:33 2019
"Only food runs!"

- Botswana "truism"



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Aug 4 04:48:07 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

I once had a room-mate who bartered and traded for extra cash. One
transaction left him with a cap-and-ball muzzle-loading revolver and this
was the one I had some opportunities to use. I don't remember using any sort
of stand to hold the revolver, but I have on memory of how I went about
loading it. *g* I do know it has at least one advantage over 'modern' ammo -
you don't shoot as many shots so save money. *g*

Some years ago I learned there exist "modern" muzzle-loaders that are
distinct from traditional muzzle-loaders. I learned it by accident. An
acquaintance was talking his muzzle-loading rifle. It had a synthetic stock,
sophisticated trigger action, and used very modern looking ammo. In fact the
only way it was old was that it used black powder and the round was loaded
from the muzzle.

This baffled me. I asked him why such a combination of modern technology
with black powder and muzzle loading? He grinned. You get a week head start
in hunting by using a muzzle loader over breech loaders (at least in
Georgia). It's a niche part of the firearms industry that evolved to game
the hunting season regulations. *g*

When I was a teenager, I also used a recurve bow and arrows to knockabout
the woods. Today bows are so sophisticated and butt ugly. That's right, butt
ugly. *g* In the past few years, maybe longer, it's been legal to hunt with
a crossbow in Georgia. It was controversial (I've did not follow the
arguments), but it's now legal and crossbows are high-tech and also butt

A more traditional crossbow ...

But the modern hunting crossbow is so ungainly that even the websites don't
load smoothly and are full of pop-up shenanigans and the like. I shun them.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Aug 4 00:25:01 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Home from the rain and settled into a nice book. Now all I need is a nice cuppa.

^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 3 23:19:50 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Adri, Blondymu, Ccool, foreverfan, Musicbuff, and sparkly_roy!

Good Dogmeat! Good to see you!

wolfguard - Thanks for the link. I had googled up an illustrated description, but this was more clear. It also had dramatic music. *g* Apparently there are different schools of thought for revolvers. The instructions I found were to load each chamber fully, and did not have a wad. I found a forum where this was discussed, as there were questions from a newbie about the wads that came with supplies. The oldtimers scoffed at the wad, saying it was for rifles, and that one should simply put that grease plug at the end. Your video showed loading all chambers with powder and wad before seating the ball.

I have to say, I prefer the idea of loading the powder and compressing it with a wad instead of compressing it with a ball (in case some of the grains object), and getting all the powder loaded first before seating the balls means fewer chambers fully loaded and lethal if something goes wrong early in the process. However, seating the ball had the same feature in both the instructions and the video, in that the ball is slightly larger than the chamber. This is necessary to keep it from moving away from the powder (or falling out altogether), but it means that it has to be deformed in order to seat it. That didn't seem like a good thing, but the young man in your video did seem able to hit targets.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 3 18:56:33 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Worth at least a skim, at least to see what, if any, differences exist between
the legend and reality (such as we might know it). I just learned York was not
always a pacifist. He came from a rural life and was poor and lacked much
book-learning. He also liked to drink and fight. His mother, who was a
pacifist, tried to bring Alvin into the fold, but it wasn't till a friend of
his was beaten dead in bar fight that York changed his ways...


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Aug 3 17:05:48 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Good mid-morning beta! I 'm off to
lunch with a friend.

wolfguard YES!!! That was
what I was thinking of. I thought
for a Quaker, his use of those
particular tactics was interesting.

^ v
Dogmeat says:
(Sat Aug 3 11:59:58 2019 [Edit/Delete]
woof woof

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 3 06:49:55 2019 [Edit/Delete]
OMG! The Milky Way Galaxy true self has been discovered. It is "warped and


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 3 06:44:41 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Your description sounds like Sergeant York starring Gary Cooper as
Alvin York. York served in WWI and won a Medal of Honor. In a single action
he killed a couple dozen German soldiers and captured over 100 others. As I
recall he said some of the Germans were charging him and to avoid them
scattering or seeking cover, he shot the farthest one first and worked his
way to the closest German. I think he said this was how the shot turkeys.

York was a Quaker.

White Wings,

Loading muzzle-loader revolver. It's a demonstration and last over five
minutes. The shooter has the revolver held in wood type stand. *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Aug 3 06:17:08 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Eiddileg, Eire, Fergusmum, and olddog!

wolfguard - Black powder does burn more slowly (or so the books told me long ago), but I don't know how much it would affect the recoil. The weight of the gun does make a difference. I don't know about handguns. Alls I know is that a .22 is a lot easier for me to control after firing than the larger calibers.

Black powder loads in a revolver spouted flame? I admit, I'm not used to flame. That would be startling, as would having all the rounds in a revolver fire simultaneously. Actually I'd never thought of muzzle loading revolvers. I thought revolvers came after modern shells, but clearly I was very wrong. It's a fair production to load one, isn't it? Apparently one is supposed to cover the chamber with a bit of grease to reduce the chance of chain-firing.

A Remington 1100 definitely has less recoil. Alas, I find it heavy and unbalanced and less beautiful than a double gun, and my personal preference is for a side by side (even with recoil). I always had a bruised shoulder after a round of skeet, but it seemed acceptable as long as I had the double rug underlay for padding. Once upon a time, around 50ish years ago, when I was skeet shooting with my father, we often shot with an older couple (probably about the age I am now). The wife was very short, under 5', and spare. She used a Remington 1100, and rarely missed. But the funniest thing was that at stations 1 and 7, when the shooter's back is to the trap houses, and one shot pairs, when she shot the second time, the almost non-existent recoil would knock her back against the trap house. Only on those stations, and those particular shots.

I always fired multiple shots at the same target. That's what it took for me to figure out how much I would jerk when I fired on that day and compensate for it. *sulk* It's why I preferred shotguns. With the swing and both hands, jerking didn't seem to be an issue. Also I didn't forget what I was holding and nearly swing through people.

The double rifle was a gentleman's gun. A rich gentleman who would be going on safaris and needed absolute accuracy and reliability, and also very large rounds. Making sure of the accuracy and reliability required skill, and being certain that the rifle could survive the rounds was also important.

Your research indicates that the Indians had every type of armament that each of us suggested. Something sure worked, at least at the Little Bighorn.

I'll have to leave the choice of who to shoot at on a battlefield up to others. I'll go with situational choices, with a side of shooting at whatever one could hit while being charged or fired at.

Agent Cooper - Hot shell casings would be awkward. Do you still have the mark?

In a sign of the apocalypse, I saw a coyote running down the middle of a fairway at dusk, being chased by a pack of deer. Normally I'd call it a herd, but they looked more like a pack. They stopped, but they stayed alert and glaring at the coyote until it left the area. That was different.

The owl has returned, silent as ever. I'm guessing it's because the skunks have returned.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Aug 3 04:58:53 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard I remember an old war movie, where the main character captured a large number of Germans by basically picking off soldiers one by one in a manner where they didn't know they were be taking out. I want to say it starred Gregory Peck, but I'm not sure.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Aug 3 01:27:40 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

The thinking behind shooting at officers is it removes the brain or
controlling agent behind the unit. Decapitation of the snake. Whether it works
or not in practice depends on context. In some armies NCO's will take over
without a beat lost. In some cases, a foe might be better served if a
particular officer remained in command, because he's just incompetent so let
him continue in place. For what it's worth, in combat, saluting may go by the
board, because officers may not want any snipers to get an idea of who is an
officer. OTOH, an experienced sniper will target whoever seems to be
effectively running things. Side note: Soldiers carrying communications gear
get targeted because they are the link to supporting fire (air and artillery).
Kill them and at least for a short time you may isolate the unit.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Aug 3 01:02:05 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper I take it you got the ribbon?

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Aug 2 23:23:08 2019 [Edit/Delete]
In basic training we fired M16s and 9MM pistols.

The M16 ejects the spent shells out the side as you shoot. One day one of those shells went down the sleeve of my BDU shirt. Those things are HOT when they come out of there. That stung! I kept hold of the rifle and kept shooting though because I was doing really well and wanted the marksmanship ribbon so bad. It left a burn mark on my arm.

^ v
ChrisopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 2 23:19:47 2019 [Edit/Delete]
I am home!

wolfguard Shooting at privates or colonels. I think that is situational too. Shoot one private down and there are many more to deal with.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 2 18:45:08 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Fri Aug 2 18:45:47 2019

Sometime in the late 70's or early 80's (?) there was a wildfire that burnt
across the battlefield. Afterwards archaeologists went in with metal
detectors looking for artifacts. Articles and, I imagine some books, were
written on their findings. Here are two excerpts (source link follows)...

"There were 2,361 cartridges, cases and bullets recovered from the entire
battlefield, which reportedly came from 45 different firearms types
(including the Army Springfields and Colts, of course) and represented at
least 371 individual guns. The evidence indicated that the Indians used
Sharps, Smith & Wessons, Evans, Henrys, Winchesters, Remingtons, Ballards,
Maynards, Starrs, Spencers, Enfields and Forehand & Wadworths, as well as
Colts and Springfields of other calibers. There was evidence of 69
individual Army Springfields on Custers Field (the square-mile section
where Custers five companies died), but there was also evidence of 62
Indian .44-caliber Henry repeaters and 27 Sharps .50-caliber weapons. In
all, on Custers Field there was evidence of at least 134 Indian firearms
versus 81 for the soldiers. It appears that the Army was outgunned as well
as outnumbered...

Survivors of the remaining seven companies of the 7th Cavalry asserted that
the Indians were equipped with repeating rifles and mentioned Winchesters as
often as not. Major Marcus Reno claimed: The Indians had Winchester rifles
and the column made a large target for them and they were pumping bullets
into it. Although some white survivors claimed to be heavily outgunned,
Private Charles Windolph of Company H was probably closest to the truth when
he estimated that half the warriors carried bows and arrows, one-quarter of
them carried a variety of old muzzleloaders and single-shot rifles, and one-
quarter carried modern repeaters."

Let's use PVT Windolph's estimate that 1/4 of the Indians were using
repeaters. How many Indians were there? The online History site says there
were around 11,000 Indians, but I'm going to assume this meant women,
children, and old men as well as male warriors. I recall one history - may
be on my shelf Lakota Noon, which estimate 1/4 of the Indians were
warriors. If so, then were a little over 3,000 warriors, so around 750 were
armed with "repeaters".

Custer had around 600-700 men, but he had divided his force into three
groups, two under Benteen and Reno and one directly under himself. Reno was
ordered to charge directly into the village while Custer took his men around
to the right, apparently planning on crossing the river and hitting the
village from the flank. The Indians counter-charged Reno and drove him and
his men back and across the river where the soldiers fled up to high ground
and dug in. I forgot what Custer ordered Benteen to do, but Benteen returned
from whatever it was to help Reno. These soldiers survived the fight. They
last they saw of Custer's men were small images of mounted men and dust, way
off in the distance probably obscured by terrain and haze. As it was, they
were fighting for the own lives and Custer was on his own.

So, Custer had around 270 men, armed with single shot rifles and revolvers,
facing 1,000-2,000 Indians with around 250 to 500 of those Indians armed
with repeaters. No significant effect on the outcome?

One of the two links in this post conclude the troopers lost because of poor
training and fire discipline. I think this certainly played a part, but I
think Custer's detachment loss their physical unity, got spread out, and
then as some Indian combatants said, ~ Got slaughtered like running
buffalo~. And then, the Indians were better motivated - defending families
and home - and angry at past affronts. It was a good day to kill.

Off topic note on the "History" article. A section goes into findings on how
some/most infantry soldiers actually refuse to shoot or to aim at enemy
soldiers. This belief originates from historian SLA Marhsall's work on
infantry combat in WWII. It was lauded for years, but has since fallen into
dispute. I recall PVT Sam Watkins of the CSA writing in his memoir, ~ We
were told to aim at the colonels and generals, but I always aimed at the
privates because they did the shooting and if one of them went down my
chances were so much the better. ~

Source of Numbers:


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Fri Aug 2 14:10:40 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard I once saw an equipment breakdown for Little Big Horn; the number of repeating rifles and pistols in the tribes' hands were not enough to drive the outcome

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Aug 2 12:18:14 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Friday, August 2nd 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Eiddileg, Eire, Fergusmum, olddog

Wow, you've really mastered the power of positive giving-up. Cordelia, 'Graduation Day (1)''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 2 12:03:55 2019 [Edit/Delete]
good morning beta, it's friday!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 2 09:05:21 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Fri Aug 2 09:14:18 2019
White Wings,

Off your thoughts and questions ...

- I have only fired one or two black-powder firearms, but if black powder
burns more slowly, then I'd think the subjective feel of the recoil would be
spread over time. I have a friend who finds the recoil of 9mm less pleasant
than the recoil of his .45ACP and .45 Colt's which he attributes to the 9mm
bullets moving faster than the 45's.1

- Back around 2000, Taurus manufactured a short-barrel revolver in 45 Colt.
One gun reviewer thought it'd be interesting to make some handloads
substituting modern gunpowder with black powder. What did he conclude?
Fantastic! Not only do you throw a heavy bullet at the bad guy, but you burn
him with a flame and create a black cloud to retreat behind. *g*

- Read one gun writer who was using a black-powder revolver for plinking. He
aimed at aluminum pie pan he'd put on a bank. Squeezed the trigger - KABOOM!
Pie pan disintegrated. All five or six rounds had detonated at the same
time, probably because a few grains of black powder clung to the back of the
cylinder and when the cap triggered the powder in the first chamber there
was a chain effect from chamber to chamber. *g*

- My experience with a black powder revolver was much different. Almost
every cylinder had a couple fail to fire, because of a cap not going off or
powder not igniting. It could have be me, how I loaded it, etc. OTOH, my
experience may explain why many shooters of the era carried more than one
revolver (OTOH, I've read many people could not afford pistols or at least
put their money to more useful firearms - rifles and shotguns).

- As a teenager I used a Remington 1100 20 gauge and don't remember feeling
the recoil. A few years ago I borrowed a Beretta over/under 20 gauge and
felt the recoil. Later than evening my shoulder was sore. I checked and saw
a bruise. What?! Cancer! - cause I couldn't immediately think of an external
cause. It took a few minutes before epiphany hit. *g*

- I believe Wyatt Earp is credited with saying, "Speed is fine, but accuracy
is final." The real question is what balance of speed and accuracy does one
need for a particular task. I try to avoid traditional targets or shooting
multiple shots at a single target. The reason is ego tends to make me want
to place the shots close together and this usually requires more time than
is necessary to put a round in an area size that's good enough.

When I'm shooting alone I use index cards scattered across a standard target
or I print a checkerboard pattern on standard paper and color alternating
squares with bright florescent yellow that I can see. g* Then I shoot a
round at each card or square and when I've shot them all, repeat.

ETA 1 - I've read double barrel rifles are very expensive because of the
effort needed to make sure the two barrels hit the same. One writer said a
gunmaker had to create a temporary attachment between the two barrels as
they are fired and adjusted until things are right and a permanent wield
could be made.

ETA 2 - I've read that overheated chambers could cause shells to get stuck
in some single-shot breech loaders necessitating prying, clawing or ramming
the case out. In one of the YouTube clips on the Martini Henry the person
said the long lever was to make it easier to eject the shell.

ETA 3 - At the Little Bighorn, the troopers were mostly using single-shot
breech-loaders while many of the Indians were using repeating rifles (and
perhaps some revolvers).

1 There seem to be different types of black power denoted by a
series of small-case letters and I assume the differences are significant.


^ v
ShadowQuest says:
(Fri Aug 2 06:54:49 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Rare zoom through

Shut up, Sheryl. No one cares about
your stupid she-shed.

Maverick My 95-year-old
grandmother (whom I've been live-in
caregiver for for the last 3 years)
has macular degeneration, and takes

white wings It was actually
clear here and I went out for a bit.
I saw ONE meteor.

It seems like whenever there's a
"can't miss!" celestial event,
either it's
cloudy/raining/snowing/freezing OR
it isn't as spectacular as they were

I used to shoot, although that was
many, many years ago. My parents
were both members of IHMSA
(International Handgun Metallic
Silhouette Association) and taught
me how to fire handguns. I also
shot my mother's .22, which I much

My worst experience with recoil was
getting the hammer between the eyes.
In IHMSA, one of the ways you can
shoot is prone - flat on your back
with one (or both) leg bent at the
knee and the barrel of the gun
resting against your ankle. I was
in the back of the truck, with my
father behind me, and when I
squeezed the trigger the gun jumped
so bad the hammer hit me right in
the forehead. Needless to say we
stopped for the day.

More on the storm:

Did I mention my next costume is a
dragon warrior, complete with wings
and a horned helm? Because of

Zoom, zoom

^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Aug 2 04:29:34 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Demonic TeddyBear, gazoo, Nad_the_Lurker, Noshferatu, Pippin, and Willow Wannabe

wolfguard, DaddyCatALSO - About accidental double loads - do you have any information about the recoil from the black powder as opposed to the faster-burning modern powders? I would think it would be less. I also suspect the muskets were pretty heavy weapons, which soaks up recoil. I know this, because I'm a sensitive flower who customized shooting vests with two layers of rug underlay. My skeet guns tended to be 6.75 lb, but I have shot a 5.5 lb Purdey, and I'm here to tell you there's a big difference. On the other hand, weren't the muskets larger caliber? Anyway, if you add in the heat (or panic) of combat and being shot at, the lack of recoil might not have been as noticeable. Do you recall if the second load of powder actually ignited, or if it was protected by the wadding and shell of the first load? I would think that if both sets of powder ignited, the results might be unhappy, especially if there weren't really good quality control in the making of the rifles/muskets.

Since I've never been trained for combat,or in combat, and avoid rifles almost as assiduously as I avoid handguns (I hate being embarrassed by little things like, you know, missing a backstop), I can't say how much aiming actually goes on. I'll bet it's generally not as much as one would find on a range. *g*

Trivia Girl - But Bush Sr. did not eschew broccoli until he was President of the United States. He wasn't allowed. It's worth adding that information lest young sprouts think they can get away with doing what he did. *g*

Maverick - Bought some tonight. *g* I'm sorry that you had to learn that bit of information.

wolfguard, DaddyCatALSO2 - I've read that the cavalry was at a disadvantage against the Indians until they were issued repeating rifles, because the Indians could reload their bows faster than the cavalry could reload their single-shot guns, at least on horseback.

If there were reliability or supply issues, especially when repeating rifles were first introduced, that has to be honored. I understand that big game hunters valued double rifles over a repeating version, because they really needed that second hot reliably. If it was a matter of someone having a theory, possibly not based on experience, that could have cost lives, as theories can.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 2 03:04:06 2019 [Edit/Delete]
MAverick What are your
thoughts on the Democratic debate,
if you watched them?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Aug 2 02:22:24 2019 [Edit/Delete]

I remember reading in several places that the pot-Civil War U.S. Army in the
west wanted a cartridge that could reliably take down a horse. The .45-70
round was one such chosen. It's relatively long, powerful cartridge and
repeating rifle actions of those years may not have been viewed strong enough
to handle it. One of the most popularly cartridges for repeaters was the .44-
40 and it's a handgun round.

Another possible reason for deciding against using repeating rifles is they
may have required more cleaning and care than single-shot breech-loaders. The
may also been viewed as more fragile and fixing them may have required a
armorer; whereas, mechanical problems associated with the single-shots would
have been simpler and amenable to field fixes by untrained troopers. This
latter is speculation on my part.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Fri Aug 2 01:28:17 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Food
Question: What vegetable did
George Bush Senior refuse to eat?
Answer: Broccoli

Trivia Vegans: notsoShyGirl!

Bummer about the eye...I didn't
know you could get both wet and

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Aug 2 00:40:11 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Hope to be home soon!!!

^ v
Maverick says:
(Thu Aug 1 20:31:26 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Question: I had an encounter with gutta-percha today. What was my encounter all about?

On another subject: It's hell getting old. I am now being treated for AMD (Age-related Macular Degeneration.) The Wet variety in one eye and the Dry variety in the other. The put me on an Eye Vitamin & Mineral Supplement (a patented formula) called the AREDS 2 Formula. Bausch + Lomb© makes a version, so does Systane©. If there is any history of AMD in your family, I suggest you take the pills along with your other vitamin supplements. I am doing okay with this (Stephen King also has it and survives) but one of the treatments involves getting injections into the eye. Sounds worse than it is.


It's My Life

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Aug 1 20:02:51 2019| [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Thu Aug 1 20:03:17 2019
I know they say to avoid using too many adjectives and adverbs, but sometimes it's the only to get the point across.

"It worked, and was enough. Jonathan's spell was not a complex one and he finished well before the thing came in reach of him. What really made such a normally simple banishing spell so rapidly effective was the sheer power channeled into him by Willow. A second portal appeared in front of the beast, then vanished again as soon as hed been drawn through it." Context available as necessary

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Aug 1 14:37:01 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Aug 1 14:11:30 2019| [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard white wings I've also heard that loading a weapon, not using the cap, then just stuffing in another load, attributed to the stress and shock of combat.
I know that repeating rifles were used and to good eff3tc in the Civil War when they became available. The force that took Selma had repeating rifles. But afterwards, during the Indian Wars, single-shot rifles, more like carbines actually, were the rule precisely so soldiers would not "waste" ammo

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 1 12:39:56 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Food
Question: What vegetable did George Bush Senior refuse to eat?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Aug 1 12:22:09 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Thursday, August 1st 2019 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!

Demonic TeddyBear
Willow Wannabe

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Demonic TeddyBear, gazoo, Nad_the_Lurker
Noshferatu, Pippin, Willow Wannabe

Now, this would be the perfect time for a swear word. Kaylee, 'Jaynestow'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 1 12:08:15 2019 [Edit/Delete]
good morning beta!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 1 06:31:45 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

There are reported instances of Civil War muskets having been found loaded
with several rounds, one sitting on top of another. The explanation given is
a soldier would forget to put a percussion cap on the nipple, pull the
trigger, but then not notice no detonation, because of all the surrounding
gunfire. They would then proceed to reload the musket and do it again.

I've also read, more than once, that War Departments2 have been
concerned that giving soldiers repeating rifles would cause more problems
than it would solve. The M16A2 had the "Auto" selection changed to a 3-round
burst. I also recall watching some Vietnam documentary with a Vietnam vet.
There was some footage of a soldier firing single, aimed shots. I noted this
to the vet and he said, ~ The guy must have been so scared he forgot to set
the selector on auto. *g*

My impression is that the Army and Marine Corp of the past 20+ years has
stressed aimed fire over 'spray and pray'. I once watched a demonstration
where five silhouette targets were set up around 50-75 yards. A man then
fired a rifle on automatic, emptying one magazine, at the targets. He got
two hits out of 20 rounds. Next he fired two shots at each target, aimed
fire. He hit the center of each target with two shots and did it in less
time than it had taken to empty the magazine on automatic.

Eugene Sledge was a Marine in WWII. In his memoir, With the Old
, he noted the "units of fire" for several the contemporary
weapons. A "unit of fire" was the number of rounds that experience had would
be used in one day of heavy combat for a particular weapon. Here are some
"units of fire" for the Marines in the Pacific in WWII (according to

M-1 Garand (the American combat rifle, caliber .30-06) - 100 rounds

Light Machine Gun - 1,500 rounds

(The rate of fire ~400-600 rpm. Average that to 500 rpm and theoretically
you could expend 1,500 rounds in three minutes (not counting time for barrel
changes) So in practice, bursts of fire and varying tempo of fighting,
something movies don't do well)

60mm Mortar - 100 rounds

1 This theory doesn't explain how the solider did not notice the
lack of recoil.

2 European military officers shared the same concern.


^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Aug 1 04:27:02 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Brenna, The Confused One, Jayne, Lil, and Lovely Poet!

wolfguard - I first read your post on muzzle loaders and repeating rifles on a very small screen, and managed to miss enough that I thought you were talking about repeating muzzle loaders. *g* You may imagine my reaction and the thought that you were funnin' with me. But I thought surely wolfguard wouldn't do that about firearms, and googled up much of what you gave me for free (if I'd read it properly). ;-)

At least I found a drawing of the action of the Spencer. Way different from the modern shotgun actions I'm more familiar with. Or used to be, anyway. I also figured out that the fault, dear wolfguard, was not with your posting, but in myself that I was all befuddled.

One of the pages I rambled across told me that the War Office initially resisted adopting a repeating rifle, on the grounds that the soldiers would use up too much ammunition wastefully, thus making supply more difficult. Lincoln ordered them to switch, and still met with resistance (must have been the Deep State), which was eventually overcome by winning. Well, that and an unfortunate episode where all the linen cartridges were soaked and unusable, while the Spencer ammunition remained usable. That was, after all, a serious logistical problem of another kind.

That was a fun video. Not the closest pattern (looked like mine when I played with rifles or handguns, which was why I avoided playing with them), but still more useful than a two-handed sword, unless the sword was within a few feet. I don't know how that stacked up to a bayonet, but on at least one occasion, pretty well.

Christopher Marlowe - I think that Agent Cooper was probably winning cool marks until DC learned that he had bogarted the Buffy games. ;-)

Agent Cooper - Better job than Frankenstein. *g*

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Aug 1 02:52:46 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Thu Aug 1 02:54:48 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

I the past month or so I read an article, probably in The Economist,
on predicting the parties' choices for nominee. None were predictably good
at selecting a the specific individual, but one finding was in 85% (?) of
the cases1 the person chosen was one of the top three.

Anyway, the bet is to follow who is raking in the most money, because that's
what it will take to get to the first stop - Iowa. Which three candidates
have the most money now in their war chests?

1 I do not remember if they said how many cases - elections -
were examined. I do not remember at what point during the primaries that the
snapshot of the top three were taken. So I don't know much. *g*


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 1 02:32:59 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Sounds like Warren
did the best out of the debates.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Aug 1 00:57:09 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper

Congrats on the new convert! Do
you get a toaster or anything for

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Aug 1 00:06:37 2019 [Edit/Delete]
That was a trick question! The full
membership I don't think is everyone is correct!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Jul 31 22:27:33 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Watched "Choices" and "The Prom" last night with Daughter Cooper.

Now on to Graduation 1 and 2, probably tonight.

If I gave DC the choice, she would certainly stay up all night and binge watch the whole series. :-)

Funny anecdote: Just a few moments ago I was in the basement family room and happened to glance up at my bookshelf. On that shelf I have a bunch of D&D rulebooks, among some other game books and a few bookshelf board games, etc.

My eyes fell on the BTVS Role Playing Game books I have up there. I remember I bought them years ago and I honestly completely forgot I had them up there among all that other stuff.

I pulled them down and handed them to Daughter Cooper, thinking she might find them interesting since she's become such a big Buffy fan.

Her jaw dropped and then she looked at me in genuine dismay, bordering on anger. (!) "Are you kidding me?? You had these all this time and you haven't told me??? Buffy is my LIFE right now!!"

Heh. Monster created.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jul 31 18:19:28 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl,

Joss Whedon!

White Wings,

I remember Sharpe's standard of 3 rounds per minute and they were indeed
using muzzle-loaders. Most Union and probably all Confederate soldiers used
muzzle-loaders (Breech loaders appeared during the war, but I believe most
were issued to cavalry and perhaps artillery and some support troop. One was
the Spencer repeating carbine, ~Load 'em on Sunday and shoot 'em all week~

The Martini-Henry was a single-shot breechloader. It could be fired fast
(see video). At the Battle of Rorke's Drift around 150 British soldiers used
Martini-Henry's to fight off ~3,000 Zulu warriors. True, the bayonets were
also used in close-combat, but I recall one history of the battle noting
around 40,000 casings were found on the battle field. The movie Zulu
is based on the battle, starring a very young Michael Caine as one of the
British officers.;_ylt=A0geKeSZ2UFdz0YALCFXNyoA;_y


^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Jul 31 13:07:22 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl

Archduke Sebassis
Cyvus Vail
Izzerial the Devil
Senator Helen Brucker
Grand Potentate Ed
Sahrvin Clan leader
Angel (undercover)

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Jul 31 12:44:47 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Name any member of the
Circle of the Black Thorn.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Jul 31 12:14:20 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Wednesday July 31st 2019 C.E.

We have FIVE (5) Birthdays!

The Confused One
Lovely Poet

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Brenna, The Confused One, Jayne, Lil, Lovely Poet

Marco: Do we look reasonable to you? Mal: Well. Looks can be deceiving. Jayne: Not as deceiving as a low down dirty... deceiver. 'Out Of Gas'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Jul 31 03:42:13 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Boy Wonder, Coma Girl, FallenAngelxyz, Kinsey730, Phil!

DaddyCatALSO - You forced me to google. Everyone agreed that the square was designed for defense against cavalry, but that was because of the superior mobility of cavalry. The Dervishes and the Zulus were considered so mobile that the square was used to defend against them. Black powder was not considered unusable by anyone until something better came along. I keep remembering Sharpe (fiction, of course, but probably had some RL truth) instructing the riflemen to stand and keep up the unimaginable withering fire of three shots a minute to stop an approaching infantry column. At any rate, many infantry actions were fought with black powder and muzzle loaders. I gathered from Kipling that the Martinis were superior to swords (unless enough people got through).

wolfguard - Was Buffy capable of being that manipulative? *g*

Christopher Marlowe - Wise plan of non-watching. Wait until the field is winnowed down and whoever makes the decisions decides who and what they want to follow.

In Mark Twain, Tom Sawyer was the mastermind who persuaded someone that painting was fun.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jul 31 03:16:17 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Tom set the precedent. Buffy hoisted Tom with his own petard. *g*


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Jul 31 02:32:02 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Wasn't it Tom
Sawyer who was the kid who
persuaded the others to do the work
for him?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jul 31 02:11:17 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl,

In the fiction section under "B" , for Buffy Summers ...

Beloved sister
Devoted friend
She saved the world
A lot



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Jul 31 01:35:16 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Democratic debate tonight, which I
am not watching!

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Jul 31 01:09:25 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Possibly..per google, epitaph means:

a phrase or form of words written in memory of a person who has died, especially as an inscription on a tombstone.

Usually I think of a phrase, not necessarily descriptors of the individual.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jul 31 00:25:48 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl,

Beloved Sister
Devoted Friend

Would these expressions not be part of the epitaph?


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Jul 31 00:15:19 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

category: Buffy
Question: What epitaph was written
on Buffy's gravestone?
Answer: She Saved the World
A Lot

notsoShyGirl is Lord and Master of
all Trivia!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Jul 30 17:36:27 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Tue Jul 30 17:38:30 2019
Going through an old BTVS file and came across this ...

"Buffy Meets Tom"

What ya' doing Buffy? Painting a fence?

I'm making stakes.

You jossing me?

Don't you see the points?

Mighty sharp.

That's to kill the vampires.

Why are you painting them?

Makes the blood stand out.

That's right sharp. (pause) Why are you doing it Buffy?

I'm a Vampire Slayer.

Could I be a vampire slayer?

Do you have a stake?


Then you can't be a slayer, Tom.

Can I have one of yours?

Tom, now don't you know nothing?


You're just slow Tom. How did King Arthur get his sword?

Oh! Oh! I know this one!


He pulled it from a stone.

That's right. He had to do it for himself.

I don't see no stake in a stone around abouts.

Look in front of your nose Tom Sawyer.

You said those are your stakes.

Not the unpainted ones.

(long pause for Tom to take this in)

So if I paint me some stakes, they'd be mine?

That's right Tom. They'd be yours.

Then I could be vampire slayer (beat) But I don't have no brush or paint.

I'll rent your mine.

How much?

How much do you got?

Tom empties out his pockets of coins into his palm.

Is this enough?

That'll do.

Buffy hands Tom the brush.

Thanks Buffy!

Remember a second coat is magic.

Reading this now, it probably should have been Huck in place of Tom.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Jul 30 17:27:13 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

Ah, Sir Hal! Of course. *g*


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Jul 30 14:10:37 2019| [Edit/Delete]
white wings The hollow square as such was mainly an anti-cavalry defense and was far less effective against infantry, of which the Mahdi had a lot at Khartoum. He did have good cavalry but the Fuzzy-Wuzzies of the poem were infantry, fighting largely with two-handed wooden swords among other things.
The Mahdists had a solid but not overwhelming numerical advantage and the British Martini rifles and Gardner and Gatling cranked machine guns were black powder weapons so the British a dn Egyptian troops were blinded by their own smoke quite often. When they went back a fter the Mahdi himself had died, the Brits had smokeless , belt-fed Maxim machine guns and better rifles also with smokeless powder

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Tue Jul 30 14:05:18 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Buffy Anne Summers
Beloved Sister
Devoted Friend
She Saved the World
A Lot

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Jul 30 12:44:24 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

category: Buffy
Question: What epitaph was written on Buffy's gravestone?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Jul 30 12:16:12 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Tuesday, July 30th 2019 C.E.

We have FIVE (5) Birthdays!

Boy Wonder
Coma Girl

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Boy Wonder, Coma Girl, FallenAngelxyz, Kinsey730, Phil

Two by two, hands of blue. Two by two, hands of blue. River, 'Ariel''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Jul 30 06:53:20 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - Vitai Lampada By Sir Henry Newbolt.
I had never run across that one.
Google tells me further that after
WW I he was bothered by having drawn
any equivalence between sports and war.

I dont think that Winston Churchill was ever
ashamed of his youthful enthusiasm. He
just accepted it as the mood of the times
and the inexperience of youth.

You were nearly poetic yourself:

On the attack, soldiers moved in bounds,
some firing while others moved.
Maneuver and fire, maneuver and fire,
till you destroyed the target or took the

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Jul 30 06:18:51 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Two meteor showers tonight, and no moon.
Alas, while the skies were not cloudy all day
(which would have been appreciated), they
were certainly turning cloudy tonight. Even
so, I managed to see three shooting stars
before giving up. There may be some more
tomorrow, if Im very, very good.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Jul 30 06:14:41 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

I was talking with a young man of the millennial generation. He's a self-
identified "progressive". He believes Elizabeth Warren will get the

White Wings,

~ The sand of the desert is sodden red,
Red with the wreck of a square that broke;
The Gatling's jammed and the Colonel dead,
And the regiment blind with dust and smoke.
The river of death has brimmed his banks,
And England's far, and Honour a name,
But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks:
'Play up! play up! and play the game! ~

I pulled this from one of my notebooks where I wrote it down many years ago.
But I don't think Kipling wrote it.

There was an almost unnoticed transition between the formations and tactics
of Napoleonic warfare and what was being experienced in land war in the
latter half of the 19th century in Europe.1 Rifles were becoming
more lethal at distance so effectiveness did not depend so much on volleys
fired by close formations. Further, close-formations made easier targets for
machine gun and artillery fire. Soldiers began dispersing across the
battlefield. Where once opposing forces could see each other - barring fog
and gunsmoke - now it was not so easy.

On the defense, soldiers dug-in usually camouflaging their positions.
Positions were placed to support each other. Lines of fire cleared.
Obstacles placed to channel attacks into killing zones. Artillery fire
prepared in advance like a menu.

On the attack, soldiers moved in bounds, some firing while others moved.
Supporting artillery fire as possible.2 Maneuver and fire,
maneuver and fire, till you destroyed the target or took the ground.

And yet doing this in small groups where it could be difficult to depend on
obedience or at least obedience alone. Men could just fall down and hide.
Many did. Pinned down, can't move forward, Sir! Discipline had to come from
within and it usually came from not wanting to let your mess mates down.

1 After the Battle of Waterloo (1815) Europe experienced only
three short interstate wars of substance in Europe proper: Germany vs
Denmark / Germany vs Austria / Germany vs France (These were the wars
Bismarck used to unify Germany into a single state). Italy was unified
through a series of wars in mid-century. Russia fought Britain/France/Turks
over Crimean in the 1850's. The Balkans saw wars for independence around the
turn of the century. In the summer of 1914, uber-war erupted.

2The Great War saw the introduction of the tank and aircraft.


^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Jul 30 02:52:20 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Amarra, closeyoureyes, LittleDemon, poohbeee, Rufus, sassyeggs, and sunshineprincess!

wolfguard - I was thinking more of modern rules of engagement, where soldiers are instructed to not detain people who they have a really good idea will shoot them down the next day. That must be hard on them. The British square did seem to be a proven technique until technology passed it by. The concept was used successfully long before them and remains useful in some incarnation today, as you have noted.

I think the British Square was broken more than the occasions you have listed. I am relying not on sober military history, but on poetry. *g* Kipling, to be precise. What happened, if it happened, was in the Soudan. I refer you to the poem Fuzzy Wuzzy. I'll avoid the most powerful verse because it is very much un-PC, but:

Then 'ere's ~to~ you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, an' the missis and the kid;
Our orders was to break you, an' of course we went an' did.
We sloshed you with Martinis, an' it wasn't 'ardly fair;
But for all the odds agin' you, Fuzzy-Wuz, you broke the square.

Your camel story probably explained the reason why, in the last great battle in Lord of the Rings, the numerous horsies suddenly vanished as the Men of the West awaited the charge of the orcs and various things. Yes, I'm sure that was it, and not the desire of producers to remove extraneous distractions from their dramatic closeups. *g*

*sigh* The South wind is meeting the invading North wind and turning it back towards Denver. Behind the lines, we hit 98. The only good thing is that it will encourage the chiggers to go away.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Jul 30 01:44:26 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard South Dakota's
Senator Thune was bandied about as
a potential prez or vice prez, he
doesn't have the same get dems to
vote for me that Bullock does.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Jul 30 00:57:11 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Medicine
Question: What is the more common
name for the condition Acute
Answer: common cold

notsoShyGirl outdid herself,
getting the question and answer

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Jul 29 18:24:58 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

This week's New York Times' "Sunday Review" section had an
article1 on Steve Bullock, Montana's governor. Some excerpts ...

"...He is so reasonable, trustworthy, and effective that before he
started running for president a couple of months ago I would occasionally
forget he existed ... I swear Steve Bullock spends half his workday just
sitting around listening...


"...The top four Democratic front-runners represent the country's
edges... A coastal Democrat has not won the general election in 59 years...

1 "This Guy Got Republicans to Vote for a Democrat", Sarah Vowell


^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Jul 29 14:34:17 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Can't find Hasopharyngitis, but Nasopharyngitis is commonly known as a cold.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Jul 29 12:39:06 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Medicine
Question: What is the more common
name for the condition Acute

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Jul 29 12:12:21 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Monday, July 29th 2019 C.E.

We have SEVEN (7) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Amarra, closeyoureyes, LittleDemon, poohbeee
Rufus, sassyeggs, sunshineprincess

Anya: We should drop a piano on her. It always works for that creepy cartoon rabbit when he's running from that nice man with the speech impediment. Giles: Yes, or perhaps we could paint a convincing fake tunnel on the side of a mountain. 'Spiral'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Jul 29 12:02:38 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard It appears so!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Jul 29 06:55:53 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

The individual's survival depends on the formation's survival. One historian
wrote there was only one recorded instance of a British infantry square
breaking to a charging animal and that was when the baggage camels inside
the square spooked and hit the square from inside.1

Hollywood does melee's because they are visualizing exciting and allow focus
on this or that individual. But, a melee means someone screwed up. The
Battle of Cameron found 65 Legionaires forming a square and moving backwards
to Hacienda a quarter-half mile away while fighting off hundreds of Mexican
cavalry (some estimate there were 3,000 cavalry). OTOH, a major reason
Custer and his detachment died was because they lost unit integrity and got
strung out along the ridge. Some participants on the local folks side said
killing the soldiers was like hunting buffalo.

Imagine a defensive position composed of one and two-man "foxholes". Each
individual position may only have a limited view, but they are interlocked
with each other so they can cover each other's blindspots. Or a four man
fire team where each member covers one sector and depends on the other
members to cover their sectors. It's not obedience, it's family ties. *g*

1 Squares were broken with cannon fire.


^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Jul 29 05:11:33 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - Ah, "The Lads". *g*

Heee! I actually have seen someone running in a circle the way you describe. It wasn't a huge disaster, just a horse acting up, and he was trying to get a piece of equipment but instead of bending down and picking it up, he literally ran in a circle around it. But it all got settled down without his input. *g*

"Working the problem" as you describe, is one manifestation of channeled intelligence. Another would be obeying orders, perhaps not slavishly, but taught as a necessity for mutual survival, like maintaining the British Square was, or some of the ancient tactics with spearmen. But then you extend that to rules of combat that aren't geared to individual survival, or the incredible self-control required of police officers, and you are dictating obedience. They all appear to be facets of the same thing.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Jul 29 04:43:03 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Is the author pitching charitable giving for character building?

White Wings,

Battle drills are less about channeling intelligence than developing
conditioned responses along with a toolbox of tactics. When most mammals are
confronted with sudden danger they usually respond initially in one of three
ways: freeze, flee, or fight. Humans add discombobulation.

Whereas an untrained or inexperienced person confronted with violence or
natural disaster might spin around in circles screaming WTF?!?!! the solider
or emergency responder's brain maps the situation to a drill and executes.
The saying is we don't rise to the occasion, but default to training. This
is one reason such folks will deny being heroic or courageous saying
instead, I was just following my training.

In my youth I participated in various 'combat' sports, such as wrestling and
Judo. Before a match I might be edgy, but once the match began I was working
the problem, no time to worry.1 OTOH, if I didn't know how to
work the particular problem, then I imagine it might have been stressful.

In The Right Stuff author Tom Wolfe wrote that one reason test pilots
didn't lose their cool was because when things went bad they'd begin working
the appropriate checklist. So long as they had a checklist, they were fine
and if they didn't solve the problem, they'd probably hit the ground before
finishing a checklist.

1 As I remember the series premiere of Magnum P.I. it
began with Magnum running a check of Robin Masters' estate's security. He
was being chased by "The Lads" and was getting stymied by a door lock. He
pulls out his lock-pick kit and begins working, 'The Lads" closing fast.

~Work the lock, work the lock. Don't think about the dogs, work the lock.



^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Jul 29 04:00:32 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday BUFFY_FRAY, jinx, Shanell, slayGal730, and SupraMonkey, ACOLYTE, Amaltheia, atalantis, baby2, Cthulhu, Fate Blaze, greengirl, heather, Jubilee, Kaseyk, and Serendipity!

lostinamerica - I find little literature about porcupines roaming around locally. Although they seem able to live in a wide range of environments from desert to snowy forests, I've found maps of ranges that show them west and north, but definitely not here. There was one article about how they were expanding their range east. But then I stumbled across posts on various forums by dog owners discussing the cost of de-quilling by their veterinarians (hint: it ain't cheap), and those went back some years. I suspect I'd have found earlier ones, but the forums themselves weren't older. So you might try googling quills and dogs. *g*

wolfguard - A revelation by any other name. *g*

There are always rules for keeping groups under controls. If you recall, in this country it was illegal to teach slaves to read. Couldn't have ideas or remote communication going on. Soldiers go through basic training and drills and subsequent discipline to try and ensure that any intelligence is channeled. Slayers who weren't Buffy or Faith actually seemed to receive considerable education, but there was a lot of physical training intended to guide them, and presumably have them look up to their Watchers as the source of knowledge required to keep them alive (for a while). We know from the Cruciamentum that they had ways to "remove" the slayer strength. Before Buffy, the Slayers might never have been made aware that they were undergoing a test.

I imagine that economy also played into the choice of a living language for the Shadow Men. It's hardly worth it to create a language for a part of one episode. And who is to say that the Shadow Men didn't speak some precursor to Swahili?

Christopher Marlowe - Two straight days of resting? It's like I don't even know you anymore. *g*

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Jul 29 02:57:04 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Weekend birthdays to


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Jul 28 23:27:55 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard[/I] I stayed indoors to read some books I got, one fascinating one called The Fabric of Character which focuses on organizations (schools, nonprofts) that focus on character-building. It's more aimed at philanthropists, but still good reading.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Jul 28 17:01:47 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sun Jul 28 17:03:53 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

I'm online, so check the Bronze every now and then. *g*


I thought of Tolkien, but also of the people who created the Klingon
language. My criticism - and that's harsher word than I mean - lies in what
could be seen as either a token gesture or ignorance. *g*

For instance, I believe when they did the AtS episode, The Girl in
, they may have done some dialogue in Italian with sub-titles.
They had knowledge of the appropriate language and access to translators. So
what happened in Get It Done? Possibility #1: What do they speak in
Africa? Many languages. What's one? Swahili (I suspect 'Swahili' would be a
top pick in game shows for Americans). Okay. Are there any translators
available? (ETA Possibility #2: Swahili is what people, or most people speak
in Africa. Wrong of course, but possibly a default perception of a Hollywood

It's a token gesture of cultural appreciation, eh? *g*

Anyway, it does lead to the topic of when and how foreign languages should
be used in television and movies. Do you need it to tell the story or is it
the equivalent of throwing a foreign phrase into one's conversation to show-
off? Quien sabe? *g* (I do not know how to do the inverted question mark for
the beginning of that sentence).

I saw the Japanese film, The Seven Samurai, with English sub-titles
and after about five minutes wasn't even aware I was reading them. Almost
completely in the visuals. What does using a foreign language add to telling
the story? Game of Thrones used at least two created languages that
had to have sub-titles - Dothraki and High Valyrian. The latter was useful
and perhaps needed to set up a major scene.1 OTOH, the audience
did not have to suffer through 8 seasons of reading sub-titles for whatever
language would have served as the common language of Westeros.2
Everyone spoke in English (though I imagined it was sub-titled for some
other international markets? Ever hear F-Troop in French?).

How much effort is necessary to create a foreign world? Consider what Martin
did for titles: A knight went from "Sir Lancelot" to "Ser Lancelot". Simple,
but effective. We're not in Camelot anymore.

1 The slave master had been insulting Dany in Valyrian and only
learns the language was her mother tongue about 30 seconds before dying at
her hand. Ooops

2 And would there have been only one? Westeros looked vaguely
like Britain. The historical War of the Roses was one inspiration for the
series (Yorks vs Lancasters / Starks vs Lanisters). The Scots and the Welsh
did not speak English, so likely the language spoken in Kings Landing was
not the same language spoken in Winterfell (OTOH, royalty might have shared
a common tongue. There was a time when Russian royalty spoke French).


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Jul 28 16:33:00 2019 [Edit/Delete]
good morning beta! It's Sunday! Is everyone out and about today?

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Sun Jul 28 14:05:01 2019 [Edit/Delete]
white wings--I've never
seen a porcupine here, wonder if
they live here, have to Google :)
They could--I know beavers live
here and haven't seen one of them
either, only signs of them.

ShadowQuest--Nope, no news,
the Weather Channel must have been
preoccupied with Hurricane Barry
and national news with Mueller
getting ready to testify ;)

wolfguard--In order to be
more accurate the writers would
have had to come up with their own
African language, and without
Tolkien around to help them it
would have taken far too long :D

Belated Happy Birthday

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Jul 28 06:54:30 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

Ah, Satori!


My reasons #2 and #3 could be merged. The Shadow Men would have perceived a
boy slayer as potentially dangerous to the status quo, but not a girl
slayer. She may be strong, but she's ignorant (note, not stupid). Once read
that the Romans strove to raise slave children to be as children. Same here.
How did Quentin put it? ~ The Slayer is the weapon wielded by the Council? I
imagine the Shadow Men and those that followed might have even created
rituals for the Slayer leading her to believe without them the strength
would vanish or that might even die without their oversight and "care".
Cynicism aside, every society that has had some sort of soldier/warrior role
looked for ways to keep them under control. Too often they went their own

There was an anthropology article, ~Africans and Aztecs~ that compared a
~couple dozen cultures' use of soldiers. Same questions: who do I recruit?
How do I finance them? How do I manage them? ("I" - head honcho) Different
answers. Successes and failures.

Just watched the trailer for Top Gun: Maverick.

ADMIRAL (off camera)
Your kind is headed for extinction.

Maybe so sir (beat) But not today.


But they are. :(


^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Jul 28 05:56:03 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - To take the last first, the word you are looking for is *expendable*. Girls are
more expendable. In addition, any problems with uppity Slayers would be self-correcting. If some
were a bit too lucky, later Watchers evolved the Cruciamentum to thin them out.

We have not seen evidence of repeat spells to create slayers. But then, all we are fairly sure of is
that the current Watchers were not doing it and it was not in their records. Who knows what went on
in unrecorded times (that we were not shown in visions)? It is also possible that once the demon
power was created and placed in a Slayer, it became self-starting. Once the body was dead it
jumped to another. It had to be something that was capable of existing in multiple bodies at once.

I confess that I had also not realized the similarity between the predicaments of Oz and Angel until I
started writing that last post and had a moment of clarity. *g*

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Jul 28 05:13:28 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

I had not made that association between Angel and Oz's reasons for leaving
Buffy and Willow. I just keep learning things.*g* Another example, when
watching New Moon Rising last night, heard a line I had missed over
every watching of the episode for the, ah, last 19 years. Here it is ...

For ulterior motives, Spike offered to help the scoobies get into the
Initiative to retrieve Oz. Spike has attired himself in a green Army sweater
and as the group pauses in the woods Willow says to Spike, ~ You do look
like an evil olive. *g*

Returning to the topic of potentials and slayers, I've a vague memory that
either in the original movie or one of the novels that some mention was made
of the chosen potential having a birthmark of some sort. OTOH, if this were
true, then if a potential did not have the birthmark, then why bother
training them? So maybe my 'memory' is not. *g*

It's possible the Shadow Men had some idea of the immensity of the world and
a feeling for "The Clock of the Long Now" when they created the spell
empowering the First Slayer. It's possible, but I think not. I suspect in
one village or town, some thousands of years ago, what passed for the local
wise men or elders were facing a big bad and created the First Slayer as a
solution.1 When she eventually died, they did it again. They aged
and as they did they realized the demon problem would outlast them and so
should their Slayer-solution, so they either taught the magick to
apprentices or updated the spell (Slayer Empowerment 2.0).

Over centuries other Shadow Men may have tweaked the spell or entropy or
magickal mutations may have changed how the spell worked. Who knows? Fanfic
prompts.2 Anyway, for the last couple decades its "like-to-like'
for my needs. *g*

1 To be accurate, as I remember Get It Done when the
Shadow Men spoke it was in a foreign language that was identified as Swahili
in - what's the word for text printed at the bottom of the screen? *g* - If
so, Swahili is not that old a language, not as old as the time suggested for
the Slayer's origin. OTOH, probably easier to find Swahili speakers than
dead language speakers (and Hollywood probably has a hard time thinking or
more than two or three languages spoken on the African continent).

2 I believe many inventions had multiple origins. Just as seeds
will take root anywhere the soil and climate is right, so will inventions
sprout to a culture's needs. So if demons were world-wide, then likely many
elders and shamans, etc were casting about for ways of dealing with them and
more than one would have come up with empowering one or more people to do
the slaying. There may have been and maybe more than one line of demon-
slaying specialists. Another fanfic prompt.

Off this, why choose a girl over a boy? I can think of three quick reasons:
(1) Local families did not want to lose a son, but a daughter? Okay, (2) a
boy empowered may grow to being a Napoleon, (3) Girls were more thought more


^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Jul 28 04:03:51 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe - Finally, some weekend activities that I can understand. *g*

wolfguard - Demon energy to demon energy? It's an entirely reasonable hypothesis. We have evidence in the form of Whistler that the PTB followed the Slayers fairly closely (by whatever means the PTB use), but we don't have any evidence that the PTB got involved in actually calling the Slayers, so perhaps they were just one of many observers. It's quite possible that when the first Watchers created the First Slayer and the rules of succession, they added something about proximity to demon sources. Possibly the women who created the Scythe and watched the watchers had something to do with it. Or perhaps it just happened supernaturally, a result satisfactory to all.

As you noted, we see that the world in general has other means of self-defense. Demon hunters, revenge-motivated vampire hunters, witches, and the occasional lucky or more involved "civilian" seemed to crop up on an as-needed basis.

Oz was good for Willow, in that his solidity balanced her insecurity. Her insecurity wasn't as helpful to him when he was undergoing stresses. And in the end they managed to pull something almost equivalent to the B/A curse to make people accept his going away so that she could follow another path - thinking of her brought out the beast in him, so he had to go away to find anger management. It took the rest of the series for her to actually find valuestrength in herself.

Well, as I predicted, the South wind is rising again! The wind map shows a steady flow rising from the Gulf, blowing up over Texas and up to the Dakotas. I guess that means that we'll be getting hotter soon. *sigh* The west is covered by flow off the Pacific. The Canadianlanders will be getting warm too.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Jul 28 00:32:40 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sun Jul 28 00:34:10 2019
white wings

Laundry and binge-watching The Tick occupied most of my day! *g*

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Jul 27 06:40:20 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

There's a generic occult belief that "like attracts like". The Slayer's
power was demonic power (Get It Done). Taken together and for my
fanfic purposes the potential chosen to be the new slayer was the potential
nearest the most evil. When the Slayer died, Buffy was the potential closest
to the Sunnydale hellmouth which was the then existing uber-hellmouth on
Earth. Ergo, Buffy got chosen. *g*

No one person, even a Slayer, can hunt all the demons and vampires
inhabiting the world. Regular folks have to make do. Now and then Council
ops team, or a potential with an aggressive watcher, or even a rogue demon
hunter will take down a more troublesome demon. So why a Slayer? Cause in
certain places mystic forces converge opening the world to one damn
apocalypse after another. Here stands the Slayer. *g*

Well, just finished a week or ten days of BTVS viewing: Goodbye Iowa,
This Years' Girl, Who Are You, Superstar, Where the Wild Things Are, New
Moon Rising
That last one still tears me. I'm on the record now as a
W/O'shipper. *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Jul 27 03:55:09 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sat Jul 27 03:56:01 2019
Happy Birthday Falcata, seaside, and Silver Star

wolfguard, Agent Cooper - I don't think we have seen much to indicate whether or not Slayers traveled extensively. I suspect it depended on circumstances. Buffy was very young, and tethered to her mother for support. The Council didn't seem inclined to tamper with that. They certainly weren't offering her an alternate means of support before or after Joyce died. But as wolfguard pointed out, there wasn't a place that needed her much worse than the Hellmouth. Maybe Cleveland. *g* Kendra was raised by her Watcher, and he sent her to Sunnydale. He didn't spend a lot of money on it, since she traveled in cargo. The Buffy of the Wishverse was apparently based in Cleveland, but did travel to Sunnydale. I had the impression that a lot of Faith's traveling was to stay ahead of Khaki toes.

The council may have had teams of agents stationed near slayers, but I suspect that they are rather cheap and normally the Watcher was the agent in place. They might have had people trying to track Faith once her watcher was killed. However, once Giles was removed from his position and refused to leave the area, they probably sent a team just in case he decided to "interfere".

wolfguard - Re:books heee!

Christopher Marlowe - Do you have a wild weekend lined up?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Jul 27 03:10:31 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Some of the books were lost when HQ was blown-up by Caleb's Harbingers. There
were duplicates, but there were discrepancies and most of the C-level
executives died in the explosion. Staff deny knowledge of details and most of
the surviving Council members were operators and analysts stationed elsewhere.
We don't count beans, we study and fight the forces of darkness.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Jul 27 02:18:30 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard, Agent Cooper I'd
like to see the financial books for
the Council sometime..

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Jul 27 00:34:22 2019 [Edit/Delete]
ahh...let the weekend commence!

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