Name or Alias (and optional password):
Please refer to the FAQ for information on the optional password feature.
If you choose to use a password, the format is: Post Name:password
It is possible to change/assign a password without posting.

Email Address:

Don't forget the <spoiler>spoiler</spoiler> tags for potential spoilers.

If this is your first time posting to this site please refer to the community rules.
You must be at least 13 years old to submit any information on this board.
Thank you for abiding by these policies.

Preview before posting?
Support the Bronze: Beta

via Paypal

The Bronze: Beta Info

The Bronze: Beta News

Web design by BelleLoo Designs



The PBP site is now on Facebook!

Shop and Support the Beta
You can help support this site by shopping for Buffy and Angel Merchandise at using the links below.
UK visitors can help support us by shopping at
Canadian visitors can help support us by shopping at
Buffy DVDs Angel DVDs Serenity Veronica Mars DVD Firefly DVD Tru Calling DVDs
Buffy DVDs
The Chosen Collection!!!
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7
Slim Sets
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7
Angel DVDs
1, 2, 3, and 4, and 5
Slim Sets
1 2 3 4 and 5
Widescreen DVD
Full Screen DVD
Visual Companion
Veronica Mars DVDs
1, and 2
Firefly DVD
Tru Calling DVDs
1 and 2

^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Feb 23 05:56:41 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe - I would recommend pacing yourself a little, even in political activism. Causes are a lot like jobs. If you burn yourself out, you won't further the cause. No matter how hard you work, the cause will be there, demanding more than you have to give, and more hours than there are in the day. Take a little time for yourself, and if they need someone to step up, then allow/insist that someone else step up. Trust me, if you don't care for yourself, the cause sure as H E double hockey sticks won't.

Of course if this is just a one week push and not every week, then I'll just offer sympathy and we can forget the advice. *g*

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Feb 23 00:25:44 2019 [Edit/Delete]
white wings There were meetings just about every night this week. Some were phone banking and email writing events to local congresscritters who are up to their usual nonsense this session. Others were board/event meetings.

^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Feb 22 17:33:12 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yay elusio!

Happy Birthday Basia, Buffy2279, Dagney Kerr*, Jenkins, Mid12AM, Polly, Thy Slayer, and Watchers_Council_Member!

Christopher Marlowe - About your nights - inquiring minds want to know?

lostinamerica - I had that same thought. *g* Is that the PTB delivering a miracle snow of cooling, or a sign of another apocalypse? I hope LA isn't about to disappear into a crater.

No snow here. No rain either. 53, slightly foggy, and very gray. I have logged into work on my day off, teleconferenced, and logged off, all without getting out of bed. Maybe I should do that now, but it gives me joy to teleconference from bed.

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Fri Feb 22 17:29:20 2019 [Edit/Delete]
lostinamerica Thanks for the reminder! His grandfathers, one had a first name beginning in with "S" and one a middle name, each name otherwise different so it was a family compromise

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Fri Feb 22 13:32:10 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Snow in LA! Anyone see Buffy and Angel wandering around hand in hand anywhere ;)

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Feb 22 13:26:58 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Friday, February 22nd 2019 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!

Dagney Kerr*
Thy Slayer

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Basia, Buffy2279, Dagney Kerr*, Jenkins
Mid12AM, Polly, Thy Slayer, Watchers_Council_Member

Angel: How're you feeling? Faith: Like I did mushrooms and got eaten by a bear.

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Fri Feb 22 13:14:22 2019 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for elusio!

yay elusio!

Happy Thank Joss It's Friday!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Feb 22 06:37:32 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Who took your nights?


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Feb 22 04:58:43 2019 [Edit/Delete]
I want my nights back again.....

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Fri Feb 22 03:56:16 2019 [Edit/Delete]
DaddyCatALSO--You were talking about Harry S Truman, whose middle name was
"S," if that really counts as a name and not an initial.

Agent Cooper--Did you win, did you win?

^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Feb 22 02:16:54 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yay DeMoriel!

Happy Birthday Drusilla's Pet, Dust'em, FilmBuff, hanncoll, Kat, Killer, Mel, Melissa, Princess of Darkness, SecondHandCarSpiv, and Tigger!

lostinamerica - Yeah, it was. I was at work, and while we didn't break to all gather around a monitor to watch the news, you'd better believe that a whole lot of news web sites were quietly watched in our individual cubicles all day. More than we theoretically should have, but no one was quibbling on 9/11.

Agent Cooper - Good luck with the lottery. You're on a roll.

^ v
Comma says:
(Thu Feb 21 22:54:01 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Peter Tork died this morning. He is the second member of 'The Monkees' that has left us. May he rest in peace.


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Feb 21 17:07:35 2019| [Edit/Delete]
lostinamerica "DaddyCatALSO--Poor Harry--is it really that hard to come up with a name?
Particularly back in the day, when everyone was using and reusing the same
names anyway ;)" Huh?

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Feb 21 16:09:25 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Lostinamerica: Yeah, but having a good day today.

I felt pretty sick last night but woke up feeling much better.

I went to the dentist this AM worried about one of my teeth, but it was fine and didn't need filling or anything.

I was only a few minutes late to work despite dentist, walk into a meeting and right then win $100 in a sales contest we do every quarter.

Then out of the blue my office decides to order subs from this sub place I really like.

AND I won trivia yesterday, so there's that.

And it's only 11AM.

I'm playing the lottery today!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Feb 21 16:04:23 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl: HAH! So TECHNICALLY I won yesterday!!!

I knew it!

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Feb 21 15:30:20 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl [//b]
Automobiles or riding in one.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Feb 21 13:38:49 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial PU rsuit

Category: Phobias
Question: What do you fear if you have motorphobia?

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Thu Feb 21 13:33:44 2019 [Edit/Delete]
DaddyCatALSO--Poor Harry--is it really that hard to come up with a name?
Particularly back in the day, when everyone was using and reusing the same
names anyway ;)

Agent Cooper--Boy, someone was REALLY having a bad day at work :(
Better now?

wolfguard--No books, just gut instinct.

white wings--That's true, how did they NOT rush to the window to see
what was happening? Weird.

Comma--Pressure cooker bad, relaxing good--I do everything I can to make
things less stressful in my life :)

Yay! DeMoriel!

Belated Yay! Polgara!

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Feb 21 13:26:40 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Thursday, February 21st 2019 C.E.

We have ELEVEN (11) Birthdays!

Drusilla's Pet
Princess of Darkness

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Drusilla's Pet, Dust'em, FilmBuff
hanncoll, Kat, Killer, Mel, Melissa, Princess of Darkness, SecondHandCarSpiv

Xander: We just saw the zebras mating! Thank you, very exciting... Willow: It was like the Heimlich, with stripes! 'The Pack''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Feb 21 13:13:12 2019 [Edit/Delete]
yay demoriel!

Happy CD Thursday!

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Thu Feb 21 12:34:33 2019 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for demoriel!

yay demoriel!

Happy CD Thursday!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Feb 21 08:08:22 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yay Polgara!

Happy Birthday LilSprout!

Happy Birthday ASH!

Mini-Binge Night ...

Something Blue

In the last scene Willow is wearing a T-shirt that says, "Speak No Evil".





(Riley's face, expressionless)

(off Riley)
Chosen One (beat) She who hangs around a lot in cemeteries. You're kidding.


It's the end of the world


Deadguy Memorial Angel Wednesday Question

You just finished laughing for 44 minutes, which BTVS episode did you

"Beer Bad"

Night All


^ v
Comma says:
(Thu Feb 21 02:50:43 2019 [Edit/Delete]
The Comma has been working his behind off. It is now 2144hrs and I am still in the office. With everything going on in the world, I did not head back home this week. I love the pressure cooker that I am now living in. Thank God for my several laptops. I would need a truck to carry around the actual hard copy files.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Feb 21 02:50:33 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who wrote the Angel
episode Slouching Towards
Answer: A writer.. HA!!!

Everyone gets it!

^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Feb 21 01:25:33 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yay Polgara!

Happy Birthday Dr. StrangePants, Lil'Sprout, weeping willow, Lothar, and whitedove !

Agent Cooper - Riders in chain mail? Easy peasy. People assumed it Renfaire, or folks dressed up for a Con, and the horsies were just transportation in character. Or what wolfguard said. scrolls Dang, he beat me to the Renfaire, too. But not the Con.

Sorry for the Mongolian Death Flu. backs off rapidly

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Feb 20 21:45:55 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Wed Feb 20 22:10:16 2019
Trivia Girl,

Jeffrey Bell

Agent Cooper,

They were filming a movie,Slouching Towards Byzantium. *g* *g*

ETA Just realized notsoShyGirl beat me to the correct answer, so I'll
toss another reason why the Knights were not seen as out of place: The First
Sunnydale Renaissance Festival[/i]! Oh! They were former members of the
Society of Creative Anachronism who wanted to use real blades in their re-
enactments. Early Halloween?


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Feb 20 21:38:37 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yup. Any moment now, Trivia Girl is going to confirm my victory.

Things are gonna change for me around here, I can feel it!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Feb 20 15:53:11 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl: Hah! Finally! Actually I think Joss wrote that one himself. I think I'm correct this time.

Every day I lose to notsoshygirl. But not today. I feel good about today!

Of course, it could be the raging fever from the Mongolian Death Flu I've contracted talking.

But I don't think so.

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Feb 20 15:07:59 2019 [Edit/Delete]
white wings "the look on her face when she saw Angelus pulling the sword made it clear that she fully understood what she had to do.
" I never noticed that, thanks.

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Feb 20 14:45:08 2019| [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Jeffrey Bell

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Feb 20 14:43:05 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard/White Wings: That's one thing I really didn't like about the bus episode.

Nobody notices a few hundred chainmail clad guys wielding medieval weapons of war riding horses through town? Nobody..? The cops don't roll by and at least ask some questions? This stretches the whole "gangs on PCP" premise to it's limit. :-)

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Feb 20 13:32:27 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who wrote the Angel
episode Slouching Towards

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Feb 20 13:11:07 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Wednesday, February 20th 2019 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!

Anthony Stewart Head as Giles
Li'lSprout (CharlieX & LilTree's childe)
weeping willow

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to ASH, Dr. StrangePants, Lil'Sprout, weeping willow, Lothar, whitedove

Never goes smooth. How come it never goes smooth? Mal, 'Safe'''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Wed Feb 20 13:07:28 2019 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for polgara!

yay polgara!

today's deadguy memorial angel wednesday question is brought to you by:

the sunnydale comedy club - you'll die laughing

you just finished laughing for 44 minutes, which btvs episode did you watch?

Happy Non-Angel Wednesday!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Feb 20 13:01:46 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Good morning beta!

^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Feb 20 03:49:22 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - Add being evyl to making stuff up. You're using my kind of logic except in a way that makes me jealous. Are you quite well? ;-)

As for the woman evacuating the towers, shock will bring on all kinds of strange thoughts. Though I can't say that blaming herself for still working at the towers and being in a deadly position that could have been avoided is all that strange. But as long as she kept on evacuating, which she apparently did since she survived to report her thoughts, she's welcome to whatever thoughts occur to her.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Feb 20 03:03:25 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Wed Feb 20 03:05:53 2019
White Wings,

Off your, "...Everyone was too busy denying everything they saw..."
observation: Since the bus driver would not see a reflection there was
nothing to deny seeing, and therefore he believed. *g*

There was one woman who had been working at the WTC when it was first attacked
in 1993. As she was evacuating the first tower hit she was angry with herself
for having not quit after it. She was still evacuating when they learned the
second tower had been hit. Her first feeling? She was angry at the two pilots
for racing.


^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Feb 20 02:58:03 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yay devilsadvocate!

Happy Birthday kenneth, Mircalla, Ozman, Reyna, and Snp2xo!

DaddyCatALSO - Whistler certainly wasn't all that helpful. Whenever I've rewatched those scenes, I just wanted to shake him. But Giles told them that removing the sword from Acathla would bring on the Apocalypse. Buffy knew that going in. Whistler did finally tell her what she had to do once Acathla was awakened. And while she was distracted by the flunky, the look on her face when she saw Angelus pulling the sword made it clear that she fully understood what she had to do.

deadguy QOD I think Xander. Although Giles ought to be pretty good. He was a lot less formal by the end.

wolfguard, lostinamerica - Returning to the meeting was unnatural. I can see not being afraid because they were in a different building. But not watching at the window is flat out not human.

wolfguard - Now you're just making stuff up. The school buses in the Doppelgang Buffyverse might have had such protections, but our Sunnydale would not have. Everyone was too busy denying everything they saw.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Feb 20 01:56:19 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydales trivial pursuit

Category: Buffy
Answer: school bus

Trivia masters: notsoshygirl, Agent
cooper, wolfguard!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Feb 19 19:36:06 2019 [Edit/Delete]

I need to check my books on panic. *g*


I'd not thought of that. The fencing scene between Giles and Wesley in
Graduation Day. I must look. *g*

Trivia Girl,

A yellow school bus. A little known bit of trivia: Sunnydale school buses'
had specially placed mirrors that let the driver see if a person preparing
to board the bus had a reflection. If not drivers used a standard crucifix
(mounted next to the fire extinguisher) to back the passenger off allowing
the driver to close the door and accelerate away. It's true! *g*


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Feb 19 15:19:21 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl: A bus.

Tuesday Memorial Question: Xander. Hands down.

Lostinamerica: The best way to turn something you love into something you hate is to make it your job.

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Feb 19 15:07:22 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Tue Feb 19 15:08:26 2019
wolfguard I know Giles fences left-handed.

white wings I s aw no e vidence Buffy even knew Keeping Angelus away form the Acathla rock was even a part of her strategy. I blame it partly on Whistler giving a speech full of soaring rhetoric instead of just telling her what she needed to do.

Christopher Marlowe In addition to w being born before the Declaration of Independence, I believe Andrew Jackson is the only President whose parents were both born outside of US territory, I think. If she is elected, that would be another one of Kamala Har.ris's amazing seconds.
And Harry S Truman did not use a period after the S; it wasn't an iniiial, it was his middle name

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Tue Feb 19 14:43:47 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
A school bus

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Feb 19 13:36:22 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Suunnydale's Trivial Pursuits

category: Buffy
Question: In what type of vehicle did Buffy and the gang leave Sunnydale at the end of the series?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Feb 19 13:18:20 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Tuesday, February 19th 2019 C.E.

We have FIVE (5) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to kenneth, Mircalla, Ozman, Reyna, Snp2xo

Angel's lame. His hair goes straight up, and he's bloody stupid! Buffybot, 'Intervention'''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Feb 19 13:12:19 2019 [Edit/Delete]
yay devilsadvocate!

today's deadguy memorial buffy tuesday question is brought to you by:

Hmmm...I think Buffy will. Being a slayer must give her some anti-aging properties. I can't see either Willow/Xander as grandparents, although definitely parents.

Happy Non-Buffy Tuesday!

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Tue Feb 19 12:48:19 2019 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for devilsadvocate

yay devilsadvocate!

today's deadguy memorial buffy tuesday question is brought to you by:

the sunnydale senior center

when the time comes, which btvs alumni will best portray a grandparent?

Happy Non-Buffy Tuesday!

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Tue Feb 19 11:57:30 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl--Good to know I could have kicked Madison's *ss ;)

I've often thought that could happen, working in an ice cream or candy store
turning you off both forever, so sad :(

wolfguard--The personalities of the people involved notwithstanding,
confronting danger in an open area would cause less panic than in a closed area.
In the former you would feel you had more avenues to escape, even if it wasn't
true, and in the latter you wouldn't.

As for the person in the South Tower, it's no surprise he wasn't worried--the
plane hit the other building, what are the chances a plane would hit HIS
building? Now we know it's possible, but before 9/11 who would have?

If that video was from the French documentary team that was doing a story on a
fire department when the planes hit the towers I've seen it--the entire
documentary was excellent.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Feb 19 02:59:45 2019 [Edit/Delete]

I will have to pick between
lincoln, Clinton or Obama. Id love
to just hang out with any one of

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Feb 19 02:43:53 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yay fantasma!

Happy Birthday claddagh 4 me, FallenAngel09, Forevere2, Keri, Sordid, Wilo luvr, and zeno!

TrivaGirl - Thanks for the timely trivia!

wolfguard - I believe that Mayor Wilkins was thinking more in terms of future dinner companions. ;-)

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Feb 19 01:12:45 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Tue Feb 19 01:14:22 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

My favorite presidents are now bones and dust.

Trivia Girl,

Mayor Wilkins was a strong supporter of scouting, as he said, ~Kids are our
future. (That's off JFK being the first boy scout to become president).


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Feb 18 23:46:18 2019 [Edit/Delete]
I hope everyone was able to kiss or
hug their favorite President today!

^ v
TriviaGirl says:
(Mon Feb 18 15:00:56 2019 [Edit/Delete]
In honor of President's Day we've put together some of our favorite fun facts about presidents:

George Washington was the only president unanimously elected. Meaning all of the state representatives voted for him.

John Adams died on the same day as Thomas Jefferson, July 4th, 1826.

This day was also the 50th anniversary of the approval of the Declaration of Independence!

Thomas Jefferson was also an accomplished architect. He designed his famous home at Monticello as well as buildings for the University of Virginia.

James Madison and George Washington are the only presidents who signed the Constitution.

James Madison was the shortest president at 5 feet 4 inches tall and weighed 100 pounds. Abraham Lincoln was the tallest president at 6 feet 4 inches tall (Lyndon B. Johnson was also 6' 4").

James Monroe was the 5th president, but the 3rd to die on the 4th of July.

On the day he was shot, Lincoln told his bodyguard that he had dreamt he would be assassinated.

Abraham Lincoln often stored things like letters and documents in his tall stove-piped hat.

Franklin D. Roosevelt met President Grover Cleveland when he was five years old. Cleveland said "I am making a wish for you. It is that you may never become president of the United States".

Franklin D. Roosevelt was the first president to appear on television during a 1939 broadcast from the World's Fair.

At 42 years, 10 months, 18 days old Teddy Roosevelt was the youngest man to hold the office of president. Ronald Reagan was the oldest at 69 years 11 months. John F. Kennedy was the youngest to be elected president.

Teddy Roosevelt was blind in his left eye due to an injury in a boxing match.

When Ronald Reagan was shot by an assassin in 1981, he joked "I forgot to duck".

The "S" in Harry S. Truman does not stand for anything.

John F. Kennedy was the first president who was a Boy Scout.

Woodrow Wilson was buried at the Washington National Cathedral. He is the only president buried in Washington D.C.

Andrew Jackson was shot in the chest during a gun dual, but managed to stay standing and shoot and kill his opponent. The bullet could not be safely removed and remained in his chest for the next 40 years.

George W. Bush is the only president to have a Master of Business Administration (MBA) degree.

Barack Obama won a Grammy Award in 2006 for his voice on the audio book Dreams From My Father.

After working at a Baskin-Robbins as a teen, President Obama no longer likes ice cream. Bummer!

Bill Clinton enjoys playing the saxophone and was a member of a band called "Three Blind Mice" in high school.

Martin Van Buren was the first president to be born as a citizen of the United States. The presidents before him were born as British subjects.

Martin Van Buren was the only president to speak English as a second language. His first language was Dutch.

William Henry Harrison was the 9th president. His grandson, Benjamin Harrison, was the 23rd president.

John Tyler had 15 children. The White House must have been hopping!

James K. Polk was the first president to have his photograph taken while in office.

William Henry Harrison died just 32 days after becoming president. He died from a cold he got while standing in the rain giving his inauguration speech.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Feb 18 14:45:23 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Monday, February 18th 2019 C.E.
President's Day!

We have SEVEN (7) Birthdays!

claddagh 4 me
Wilo luvr

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to claddagh 4 me, FallenAngel09, Forevere2
Keri, Sordid, Wilo luvr, zeno

I-I'm just taking things without paying for th... In what twisted dictionary is that stealing? Willow, 'Triangle'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Feb 18 14:38:14 2019 [Edit/Delete]
yay fantasma!

Happy Presidents Day!

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Mon Feb 18 13:47:28 2019 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for fantasma!

yay fantasma!

Happy Presidents Day!

^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Feb 18 04:56:25 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Anya's Wrath and rus in urbe!

ducky R.I.P.

Christopher Marlowe - According to my weather app, you are at 3 degrees at this moment. Probiotic gummies sound like a good idea (although I've read that most probiotic pills and capsules are fairly ineffective, compared to a nice (blech!) unpasteurized yogurt (probably illegal)). I hope that you and the public weren't outside, although being out of the home at all sounds like madness. You guys must be made of tougher stuff. Sort of like Paul Bunyan or Babe the Blue Ox.

wolfguard - I very much want to avoid being in a car underwater. Granted that doesn't help at all if one finds oneself in the situation. *g*

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Feb 18 01:28:47 2019 [Edit/Delete]
My first event specialist gig, handing out Probiotic gummies to the public. Still figuring this stuff out, though.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Feb 17 23:40:42 2019 [Edit/Delete]

In my time, I've experienced dangerous situations where I had to calm the
self to deal with the problem. What almost always helps in doing this is
either previous experience or preparation/training for the situation. One
reason this works is under stress a human brain usually limits its choices
to three or four actions: freeze, flee, fight or rationalize. However, if a
person has learned a protocol for a given situation, then the brain will
often latch onto it. Of course, one wants the protocol to be one that
actually works. *g*

I googled, ~ personal experiences of people trapped in a car underwater. I
did not see any results of personal experiences, but there was a least a
page of results suggesting protocols. Follows a link to the first one ...

I just skimmed it and it looks to agree with your approach.

That said and as odd as this might sound, in many if not most cases people
do not panic. There are specific conditions that lead to panic and often
times these conditions do not occur. I believe more often people
rationalize or play down dangerous situations. I recall the story of one
person who was in the South Tower of the WTC in a meeting when the North
Tower was hit. He was facing away from the window when the plane hit the
other tower. The conference room lit up and I believe he said the faces of
those facing the window expressed WTF shock. What did they do? Stare out a
minute or two and then return to their meeting.

Some others had a different reaction. Follows a link to what claims to be
the only video of the first plane striking the WTC. It's from a crew that
was filming a documentary on ~ a day in the life of a NYC fire department

Another story of 'stay calm and carry on' from an African professional
hunter's article ...

The PH's client had wounded a lion that fled back into the bush. Per
protocol the client was moved to a relatively safe place and the PH went
forward to finish the lion. He was carrying a double-barrel rifle and a .357
magnum revolver. As was crossing a dry stream bed there was a roar. The PH
said he literally jumped a foot off the ground, but he continued across. The
lion roared again. Again he jumped a foot off the ground. Just after he
climbed out of the dry stream bed the lion charged out of the bush towards
him. He raised his rifle, took aim, and fixed on a small rock between him
and the charging lion. To assure a good shot, he planned to wait till the
lion reached the rock ...

He said it was the longest few seconds in his life. *g*


^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Feb 17 15:55:50 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Monday, February 17th 2019 C.E.

We have THREE (3) Birthdays!

Anya's Wrath
rus in urbe

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Anya's Wrath, ducky, rus in urbe

Willow: That's a work ethic! Buffy, you're developing a work ethic! Buffy: Do they make an ointment for that? 'Real Me''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Sun Feb 17 13:07:52 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard, white wings, Agent Cooper--All this discussion about how to
escape from a sinking car is all well and good NOW. But does anyone really think
a person in a sinking car is going to calmly wait for the car to fill with water
so he/she can open the door? No, they're going to be afraid of drowning and so
will do whatever they can to get out. Which is good, because everything I've
read states the best way to escape is to roll down or break a side window ASAP
and get out that way.

I have a special tool I keep in the center console for just that reason, it costs
less than $10. That being said, I'd still try to roll down the side window
first as I've never had to use this tool and so wouldn't want to rely on it

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Feb 17 06:52:44 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Giles is left-handed!

I'm watching The Dark Age. Giles studies a list of names in his
notebook, then crosses a line through two names. He is holding the pen in his
left hand. I never caught this before. There was a fourth season episode where
the scoobies find Giles singing and, I believe, playing a guitar. Anyone
remember this scene? Was he playing left-handed?


^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Feb 17 05:24:27 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Kris, MozzarellaDemon, psycho_pep_squad, and teach!

Christopher Marlowe - I don't believe you have. However, I have looked at your weather and IMO you have excellent reason to hate winter. I'm sorry.

wolfguard, Agent Cooper - Smashing the window might cause a problem with inrushing water. However, if your car were in moving water, pointed upstream, you might not be able to open the doors against the current. In a calm lake it might be different.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Feb 17 04:40:46 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today is Saturday, February 16th 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Kris, MozzarellaDemon, psycho_pep_squad

Xander: We just saw the zebras mating! Thank you, very exciting... Willow: It was like the Heimlich, with stripes! 'The Pack'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Feb 17 01:20:57 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Have i told anyone lately that i am
really hating winter right now?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Feb 16 23:52:38 2019 [Edit/Delete]

Agent Cooper,

I agree. Best bet is probably to get the seat belt off, hand(s) on the door,
and then hyper-ventilate until it's possible to open the door. I can recall
one ~expert saying to turn on headlights, interior lights, flashers, etc. to
help possible rescuers. I don't know if this work, because I don't know how
long it would take the water to damage the electrical system.


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Sat Feb 16 23:07:45 2019 [Edit/Delete]
I think breaking the car window
would be the riskier option. You
would have to be ready for the
sudden rush of incoming water which
would be disorienting and would
force you back into the car for a
few precious moments.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Feb 16 16:00:06 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sat Feb 16 16:01:28 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

At 10:52 EST, it's 53 degrees F in Atlanta which has forecast high today of
62 degrees. :) More important, NO ICE! *g*

White Wings,

As I remember the Myth Buster guy's approach was not to break a window,
but to wait till enough water was inside the passenger compartment so that
one could open the car door and exit.

I've seen a person break in a car in a second. He used a screwdriver or
chisel. The blade was inserted between the glass and the frame, as I
remember in a corner, and quickly levered (He made have hit the end of the
handle hard and quick, his back hid the movement). Glass immediately


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Feb 16 15:25:11 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Good morning beta! snow, snow and more snow here..I hope things are sweller for other fellers.

^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Feb 16 03:42:04 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yay Beldin!

Happy Birthday ~ceridwen~, Carita's Mom, Chamaray, Elli the Vampire Slayer, Miller's Angel, Spoon, twilight, Wicked_Will, and WillowJadia!

Belated Birthday Wishes to: ash, Duchess of Buffonia, Lucan and Val-Deborah!

Agent Cooper - You are making the mistake of equating Angelus with Angel. One was a gleeful killer. One didn't kill (people)(well, maybe that once on the submarine, but he was dying anyway). Same body, two psyches. They weren't interchangeable, and Angelus couldn't emerge unless the curse was removed or Angel abdicated, which he didn't. And he didn't know how the curse could be removed the first time.

wolfguard - Interesting about submerged cars, especially the effect of the smoke. I'd always heard that you couldn't open the doors easily. At least, I'd always heard it since Chappaquiddick. In the olden days one could roll down the windows, but with electric windows, you have to break out. They have tools that you can keep in the car for that purpose. They've got a pointy hammer head and a slit with a knife blade for cutting seat belts. But you have to (a) have it, (b) get to it, and (c) have the presence of mind to use it properly. Maybe you also need to be strong enough.

Buffy always tried to do armed combat. She needed pointy sticks with which to poke demons. *g* But the point of my comment (musing? Drivel?) was that she always seemed to have more fire and be faster and more successful when she really cared about what she was fighting for. Heck, even Kendra couldn't seem to overcome the police-Taraka assassin until the woman made the mistake of tearing her only shirt. That factor might have made a difference when she was fighting Angelus in B2. But we never know what might have been.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Feb 16 02:05:34 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

Here's your original question ...

"Was Giles right when he decided to kill Ben? What's the difference?

I argued why Ben needed to be killed. Only the third reason involved
weighing Angel and Ben's deeds - good and/or bad. Your argument appears to
be while Angel is not responsible for Angelus' kllings, he is like Ben a
vessel. If you destroy the vessel, you destroy the evil inside. If it's
right to kill Ben to kill Glory, then it's right to kill Angel to kill

There's the logic of symmetry. If symmetry is all that matters, kill Bill -
kill Angel.

How much do we value redemption? Where is it's place in one's moral
universe? If one doesn't value it, then kill Angel.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Feb 15 19:15:24 2019 [Edit/Delete]

Agent Cooper,

Noted post. Will read and reply tonight.


Recently listened to one of the people involved in the ~Myth Busters~ shows.
One question asked, ~ what was the most dangerous project he did? Testing
what happened if you and your car went into the water. Three things of
interest to me ...

(1) Because most vehicles' center-of-gravity is towards the front they will
turn upside down in the water. The driver and passengers will be upside

(2) The water pressure outside will make it difficult if not impossible to
open the car door until there's enough water inside the passenger
compmartment to equalize the pressure. What to do? Here a warning: I've know
about this problem for decades and know two ways suggested for equalizing
the pressure AND I'm not sure he which one he noted. But here the two

- Wait until enough water is inside the compartment before trying to open
the door.

- Break the glass (if you're able, usually requires some sort of tool).

There are probably pro's and con's for both methods. Debate. *g*

(3) Before putting the test cars into the water, they did an extensive
clean-up of the car, including removing all liquids, so to avoid polluting
the water. The surprise was the amount of cigarette smoke that had been
absorbed by the seats and surfaces. Once the car was emerged in the water
the smoke dissolved into the water producing a milky liquid that was like
~salsa to the eyes.

He was also asked where they got their cars for stunts. If the car did not
have to work, then from metal salvage companies. If the car had to work,
then Craigslist.


^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Feb 15 15:22:06 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Friday, February 15th 2019 C.E.

We have NINE (9) Birthdays!

Carita's Mom
Elli the Vampire Slayer
Miller's Angel

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to ~ceridwen~, Carita's Mom, Chamaray, Elli the Vampire Slayer, Miller's Angel, Spoon, twilight, Wicked_Will, WillowJadia

Bar maid! Bring me stronger ale! And some plump, succulent babies to eat!
Olaf the Troll, 'Triangle'''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
The BirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Feb 15 15:13:55 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Today Thursday, February 14th 2019 C.E.
Belated Valentine's Day!

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!

Duchess of Buffonia
Val-Deborah (Dianne's Big Sis)

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to ash, Duchess of Buffonia, Lucan and Val

T hat's the thrill of living in the Hellmouth! There's a veritable cornucopia of fiends and devils and ghouls to engage ... Pardon me for finding the glass half-full. Giles, 'Witch''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Feb 15 14:56:14 2019 [Edit/Delete]
yay beldin!

Happy Thank Joss It's Friday!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Feb 15 14:20:13 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard/White Wings:
You are making the mistake of quantifying evil. If I willfully take the life of one person, am I somehow less evil than someone who kills 10 people? 20? Thousands?

Does it matter WHICH people were killed? Or in what way? I mean, how many of which kind of people can I put on my scorecard, in what way, before I should be put down myself in your judgment? How many before it's not okay for me to just say "oops, sorry" and start being good with no repurcussions whatsoever?

This is inherently wrong, and a very slippery slope that goes to a very bad place.

Even if we do use your (flawed IMHO) logic, Angel/Angelus has probably killed more people and caused more abject suffering than Glory, if only because he was on the planet and active for far longer than she.

So even by that broken yardstick, Angel deserves death FAR more than Glory does, both as punishment and prevention.

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Fri Feb 15 13:25:53 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yay! Beldin!

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Fri Feb 15 12:54:49 2019 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for beldin!

yay beldin!

Happy Thank Joss It's Friday!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Feb 15 07:34:32 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

Buffy confuses emotions with feelings, but since most people do I will cut
her some slack.1 Whether or not one's emotions or feelings help
or hinder the fighter often depends on what sort of fighting they are doing.

(1) Self-Defense: If you find yourself fighting, then you've already looking
at a 'D' for your self-defense exam. If you have been attacked by a
predator, then you were either ambushed or deceived. It either case you're
usually are going to freeze as you try to figure WTF is going on. Often the
attacker gets what they want or incapacitates you before you can break out
of the freeze. It's over and it's too late to get very emotional.
Afterwards, if your survive then you will get emotional and it will probably
last a long time.

The current thinking on breaking the freeze is to develop very simple
evasion and/or counter reactions that apply to almost any attack. The
reasoning is nerve signals travel faster than hormones (messengers of the
emotions), so you want useful actions to trigger off before the hormones
trigger a freeze.

(2) Unarmed Combat: Here you're trying to incapacitate or kill your
opponent. Setting aside taking down sentries and the like, this is emotional
fighting. Any experienced military force will orient their training of
combat troops so their default behavior is to take the fight to the enemy.
Gunfire? We freeze, Marines head towards it.

(3) Law Enforcement: Officers often have to engage emotional people and
calibrate the engagement to folks' behavior. If they are going to be
successful, they have to use their emotions and not be used by them. Force
is suppose to be appropriate to the situation - often confusing, chaotic,
changing. Most difficult conflict engagement.

(4) Sparring/Sport Fighting: Both parties chose to participate, usually with
well-defined rules. Since the fights usually last the longest of any of the
types of fighting emotions and feelings will come into play.2

TV and movie fights are usually staged as sparring, because it's like a
game, give and take. It has a beginning, a middle, and an end. It's
narrative. It appeals to the eye.

But it's not like real self-defense or combat. *g*

1 Emotions represent physiological states, while feelings are the
thoughts associated with the physiological states. More or less.
Psychologists probably argue over it. *g*

2 As will reflexes. The well-trained fighter will depend on
reflexes when defending and mixing it up, but will use their brain to
maneuver, set up and execute attacks.


^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Feb 15 04:14:51 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe - Anything that can be discussed? In any case, {{{sympathy}}} and virtual Chocolate!

^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Feb 15 04:06:42 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yay paks!

Agent Cooper - I stand with wolfguard on the Ben is Glory thingie. *g*

wolfguard - Yes, *faraway looks* that dropping nekkid from the sky was endlessly useful on several levels, to Buffy, to shippers, and to board conversations.

I said last night that I didn't think that the Lie made any difference to the available choices during the fight. It's late again, and I'm tired and fuzzy again, but there is one possible difference. As it was, Buffy fought the good fight, and there was that fine moment "No weapons, no friends, what do you have left?" "ME" that I'd hate to have lost. But she was essentially fighting in despair.

I know that you (and Kendra) prefer the idea of being calm and in control during a fight, and IRL you are probably correct. But Buffy thought of her emotions as total assets. When she was angry, or had hope, or felt strong, she fought better. Think "You killed my date!" (didn't Xander realize it was best not to help her at that point?). In Prophecy Girl, think of the difference between the girl in the tunnels who was going to die, and the girl on top of the library grabbing the Master with one hand. Or the Freshman, poor lost pathetic little Buffy running from Sunday vs. the Slayer who wasn't going to let them destroy her class award. And we mustn't forget Anne, and "I'm Buffy. I'm the Vampire Slayer. And you are?" So in B2 she was basically fighting to kill all hope of recovering her lost love. If she'd had hope, perhaps that nameless vampire who got between her and Angelus might have been dispatched on the order of "Oh look, a bad guy" instead of delaying her. She might have been able to keep Angelus from Alfalfa.

But then we'd have lost "ME" and nekkid Angel dropping from the sky. So TPTB made sure that was never a possibility. ;-)

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Feb 15 03:57:27 2019 [Edit/Delete]
I think I close to tearing my hair
out over stress.....I need Willow
to magic stuff up for me.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Feb 15 00:20:26 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

There are at least four reasons:

1) Glory was much, much more powerful than Angelus. On most nights and
barring bad luck, Buffy had the physical ability to take-down Angelus. Her
weakness was her love for Angel. OTOH until the final battle, Buffy was
never able to dominate Glory in battle. Buffy survived through a combination
of luck and running away.

2) Ben was designed as a prison to house Glory and she had found away to
temporarily escape. It was implied this was happening more often and each
time she was out longer. Conceivably the time might have come when Ben
ceased to exist as a prison and thus cease to exist.

3) Angel was doing some good works, including assisting Buffy stop one
apocalypse (Prophecy Girl). Ben was looking after himself. Recall it
was Ben who summoned the ~Queller~ demon to kill the crazy people in
Listening to Fear (Ben to Lumpy Minion ~ I'm always having to clean
up after Glory's mess.)

4) TPTB have uses for the boy. As of yet, Ben hasn't dropped nekkid back
into Sunnydale.


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Feb 14 16:05:29 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Notsoshygirl: You know what would have been a way better idea? If ol' Esther had started the tradition of buying people sandwiches for Valentine's day. Why isn't THAT a thing?

CC Trivia Girl

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Feb 14 15:59:50 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Lostinamerica: That is exactly what my next post on the subject was going to say.

Was Giles right when he decided to kill Ben? What's the difference?

CC White Wings/Wolfguard

Trivia Girl: To answer, I would first have to know who Esther Howland is. Did she invent a sandwich? I'm really hungry right now, so I'm hoping she's famous for having invented some kind of sandwich.

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Feb 14 15:49:58 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Esther Howland (18281904) was an artist and businesswoman who was responsible for popularizing Valentine's Day greeting cards in America.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Feb 14 13:37:31 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Holidays
QuestioN: Esther Howland was famous
for doing what on Valentine's Day?

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Thu Feb 14 13:02:02 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper--Angel isn't deserving of death, Angelus is. The PTB decided
Angel was worth saving in Amends, isn't that enough?

But then there's Ben/Glory. It's the same situation as Angel\Angelus, as Ben
isn't deserving of death, Glory is. Here the PTB don't intervene, and in order
to stop Glory Giles kills Ben, an innocent. Why? Why is Angel saved and not

cc wolfguard, white wings, DaddyCatALSO

Yay! Paks!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Feb 14 12:51:56 2019 [Edit/Delete]
yay paksenarrion!

Happy CD Thursday!

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Thu Feb 14 12:29:43 2019 [Edit/Delete]
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for paksenarrion!

yay paksenarrion!

Happy CD Thursday!

^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Feb 14 07:48:29 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - The only part I think I can remember of the lyrics came as Buffy paused
in the door and smiled: "You use him and then you throw him away."

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Feb 14 06:34:06 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

"Logical"? Deductive, inductive, or adbuctive?

White Wings,

Spot on again. Do you recall the lyrics of the song playing over the scene?

Watching Lie to Me. :)


^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Feb 14 04:46:02 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Yay Mia!

Happy Birthday Angel'sHeaven, BuffyAngel_4ever, Willowgurl, and WillowofOz!

Agent Cooper - Daughter Cooper sounds very sensible. *g* Angel and Angelus are dramatically different, with entirely different behaviors. Angelus deserved killing. Angel did not. But it was Angelus until the end of B2, when all choices ended. Xander's Lie was one of his attempts to manipulate and control Buffy. It made my eyes narrow, but I mostly overlooked it in view of some of his better actions. I believe that I may have made spirited arguments in the past that Buffy might have made different choices in the fight had she been aware of Willow's second attempt, but it's late, I'm tired, and I'm fuzzy. I don't at this moment think that it made any material difference to the options open to her when she faced Angelus. The S7 episode in which the Lie was briefly addressed made it clear that he did make her feel more isolated, and I speculate that contributed to her choice to leave Sunnydale that summer, above and beyond Joyce's unfortunate speech.

wolfguard - Daughter Cooper will survive. At least she won't have to wait as long as I did between B2 and Angel's return. *g*

Your question from last night about the end of Reptile Boy:

In response to Angel's asking Buffy out to coffee, she responds, more or less, "Sometime", and leaves and walks to the door. They are all watching her back in shock, and at the door she pauses, not turning around, and smiles, and then walks out.

Christopher Marlowe - I hope you aren't a popsicle. The coming days look rather frigid in your area. {{{hot chocolate and fuzzy socks}}}

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Feb 14 01:31:03 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard - Except Angel had barely started his
career of saving others when he was de-souled.
And the scoobies had no way of knowing he would
later go on to help others. The most logical action
at the time during "becoming" would be to kill

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Feb 14 01:23:35 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: What was the original air date of the first episode of Angel?
Answer: what notsoShyGirl Said.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Feb 14 01:12:29 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

I'm of the school that believes Angel is not responsible for Angelus'
actions. I do recognize Angel is a potential threat. OTOH, Angel has
actually been instrumental in saving innocents - sometimes on large scale.


Certainly the discussion is about Buffy and the scoobies' actions prior to
Alfalfa's opening the dimension. However, one also must consider questions
of time and what of it Buffy knew or could conjecture.

Specifically, once Angelus came into possession of Alfalfa what had to
happen to open the dimension? As I remember, Angelus needed information from
Giles, but I don't remember if Buffy knew this. If Buffy didn't have any
such knowledge, then the safe assumption would be the world could end any
minute. If Buffy couldn't immediately slay Angelus, then she needed to
disrupt his plans - keep him ducking, running, burying his face in the dust.


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Feb 13 21:39:06 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper wolfguard The eagles couldn't just take Frodo and the others to Mt Doom because walking together has great spiritual significance to Tolkien.
As for Angel, the situation sin't necessarily the same. He doesn't just change his mind 9and that sort of thing does bug me, too,) he essentially becomes and un-becomes someone else depending onw heteher the curse is in effect or not. bigger issue, not saying you're wrong, a nd who knows, he very likely will never become that happy again absent another encotuenr with a Mohra.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Feb 13 20:01:09 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard: Daughter Cooper pretty much agrees with Buffy on everything. :-)

There's plenty of alternatives they could have tried. The most obvious being the one suggested by Cordelia, IE let Willow do the ritual while everybody waits someplace safe and see if a sorry Angel calls her. Why not?

Or Tranquilize Angel. Or destroy the big stone demon, like you said.

Why couldn't the Great Eagles have just FLOWN Frodo to Mount Doom, and drop the ring in the volcano? :-)

All that is missing the point though.

The Angel dilemma on Buffy is illustrative of what I call the "Mirage effect. "

To understand this concept, you have to have seen the pixar movie "The Incredibles."

You can skip the next few paragraphs if you have. If not, stay with me on this.

In that film, there's a supervillain named Syndrome who lures super heroes (who have been outlawed and are all living in hiding) to an island under the pretense of needing help to defeat killer robots attacking his research base, analyzing the heroes performance against the robots to improve them (they are HIS robots) and invariably killing the heroes in the process.

His main ally in this is a villain named Mirage. She tracks down the heroes where they are hiding, stalks them, and eventually entices them to the island (and their ultimate death) with the prospect of adventure and money and the chance to be heroes again.

Later in the movie, one of the heroes has a chance to kill Mirage, but let's her live. She later has a change of heart and helps a group of heroes escape the island.

...And presumably goes her merry way afterwards and lives her life. And nobody seems to care.

NO. WAIT. BACK UP. THAT is my problem.

Mirage is DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the deaths of dozens of people. She knowingly and willingly helps Syndrome lure superheroes to the island to be murdered.

Now everything is okey dokey somehow? Because she just changed her mind and decided to be good for a sec?

See where I'm going with this? It happens alot in TV and movies. And it bugs the crap outta me.

Angel is responsible for the torture and murder of hundreds, maybe thousands of people. He deserves death many times over, and even if you don't believe he deserves death, killing him saves how many countless lives as he is sure, if he lives long enough, to inevitably become evil again at some point and murder again.

Killing Angle is the most logical, responsible and moral response.

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Feb 13 19:34:39 2019 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Agent Cooper anything about the fight scene at the end of Becoming 2" is moot unless you specifiy that the action in question occurs before Angelus withdraws the sword. Onc e he did that, pinning him to t he statue was the only possible ending unless you count the end of the world as a choice.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Feb 13 19:03:21 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

OMG, she appears to 'becoming' a B/A'er. *g*

As I recall, "Xander's Lie" was a topic of long debate.

We know the tranquilizer gun works on vampires (Doppelgangland), so
if Xander had told Buffy the truth about what Willow had said. Buffy might
have tried use the tranquilizer gun on Angelus, then waited to see if
Willow's spell worked. OTOH, would she have had time to return to the
library and get the gun? Another possibility would have been to get another
"rocket launcher" and destroyed Alfalfa from afar. OTOH, we don't know if
there would have been unexpected and unintended consequences from destroying
Alfalfa. What we do know is the scoobies are not much into thinking much
about contingencies or through how plans might play out.

Off that, what happened to Alfalfa? I wonder if the statue is being stored
in Giles' bathroom. Recall the scene in Something Blue where Buffy
and Giles had Spike handcuffed in the bathtub? Perhaps Alfalfa is in the
corner, off camera? Spike might have had some words for it. *g*

Also, what if Giles did have various contingency plans for what-if's that
might occur? What if Buffy discovered them? Story possibilities?


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Feb 13 17:23:12 2019 [Edit/Delete]
White Wings: To be fair, I didn't really drive the phone people crazy. I just..ignored them. :-)

White Wings/Lostinamerica: Yeah, glad we got a second opinion. The first neuro group didn't even really question anything. They just said "you have epilepsy, here's some pills, good luck." No more tests, no investigating causes, no nothing.

The new neuro doc, and her primary doc too, are all like..."wut? That's all they did?" Both of them were pretty taken aback by the first neuro doc's quick diagnosis of epilepsy without any other tests.

On the contrary, they want EEGs, blood tests, exams etc. They're sending her to an endocrinologist. IE, they want to know what's going on and they are aggressively pursuing that. A lot of things can give you a seizure and it's important to rule that all out and/or find out why so it can be treated.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Feb 13 15:15:13 2019 [Edit/Delete]
Deadguy Angel Question: I agree with Chris Marlowe: Spike. Drusilla and Giles would be very hard to pull off authentically, because they are, well, rather authentic and nuanced. Spike is just a bawdy hackney type thing that lots of Americans can belt out after a little practice and viewing some Benny Hill clips. :-)

Tuesday Memorial Question: I've never watched any eps drunk. I've never used drugs and haven't been drunk in many, many years.

I DID just watch "I only Have Eyes for You" while rewatching with daughter cooper recently. I haven't seen that ep since it aired, as I didn't really care of it at the time. Rewatching it, it's still not my favorite ep but I did appreciated it a bit more as the ending is cleverly done and contains alot of necessary context for the rest of the season.

Daughter Cooper and I watched "Becoming Part 1" last night, and she got very angry with me for siding with Xander and Kendra that Angel should have been killed. She was VERY animated about this. :-)

Previous Posts