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Tiamat says:
(Sat Mar 11 08:39:42 2017 24.17.70.162)
Tiamat walks into the Bronze
having completely forgotten how to
use the Scooby codes & password ...



Happy birthday Buffsters!

Where in the world is Carmen
Typhoid Mary King SanDiego??



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AmAzOni says:
(Sat Mar 11 07:46:07 2017 24.17.188.10)
It's hard to believe it's been 20 years. So
much love!



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thumper says:
(Sat Mar 11 07:29:06 2017 220.240.250.106)
feeling nostalgic



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white wings says:
(Sat Mar 11 07:10:01 2017 70.112.135.184)
wolfguard - "Oft it may chance that old wives keep in mind word of things it once was needful for the wise to know." Gandalf

I still carry a lead rope for catching up errant horses that I no longer own. And maybe some leg bandages. The bandages have been handy when I had a split radiator hose and needed to limp to a service station. *g* I did not know that about matches, although now that I read it, it sounds familiar. I may have read it somewhere. I left Port Arthur when I was three, to head North. I didn't really brush against country(ish) life again until after college, when the friend that I owned horses with married an ex-farmer from Arkansas turned accountant, and they and the horses lived out in the country.

Who needs life jackets? I'm sure you knew how to swim. *g*

lmo - And yet, like others, you returned home for fond memories. Good to see you.

Christopher Marlowe - hands tag over Missing something? *g*

clover, tiggy - *waves*

Irishrose - I have also heard of a lot of people having a flu/cold thing that hangs on forever. I've managed to get two broken ankles, so I have not venturing out among people very much, and I really hope to be spared this plague.



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white wings says:
(Sat Mar 11 06:32:41 2017 70.112.135.184)
Margot Le Faye - It is. It did. And a happy Buffyversary to you!



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wolfguard says:
(Sat Mar 11 06:32:00 2017 71.56.125.67)
White Wings,

Knowledge of the old ways is not to be discounted likely. I still keep flint and steel in the car. well, not *g*

Did you know matches were once called "Lucifers"? *g*

I grew up on the rural side of a road leading west out of town. South side the suburbs ended. North side gardens, fields, "wilderness". *g* My siblings and friends ran wild. I can remember "sinking" row boats in a local lake, "sinking" because they were wood and full of water still floated. No life-jackets. *g*



WG



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Margot Le Faye says:
(Sat Mar 11 06:15:23 2017 98.115.243.220)
It's still the buffyversary in most of the country, right?

To say Buffy, and the fandom, and the Bronze, changed my life is a serious understatement. But, I kind of think it had that impact on most of us.

At all odds, Happy Buffyversary, all.



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lmo says:
(Sat Mar 11 06:05:40 2017 96.49.211.48)
Haven't thought about this place in years!
So nice to see a bunch of the old crew!

Happy 20th!!



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Mar 11 05:46:31 2017 209.159.254.195)
Oh wow! CharlieX!! Xanderella!![/b] Howdeez!



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clover says:
(Sat Mar 11 05:11:48 2017 76.169.59.82)
Happy 20th Bronzers!!



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tiggy says:
(Sat Mar 11 04:51:53 2017 76.122.223.254)
Nostalgia told me to check in. Seems like a
popular sentiment. It's nice to see some of
you have kept this place going. *waves* to
all those I know and love.



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CharlieX says:
(Sat Mar 11 04:47:52 2017 71.63.52.131)
Edited: Sat Mar 11 04:48:41 2017
white wings. The wild feeds were a great thing. I live/lived in a very rural area and there were just some shows that the only way to get them was with a c-band and the feeds.



*poof*

*BAMF*

............and all that other cool stuff..............



CharlieX le Desincarne
"Love makes you do the wacky"
PHBA Co-founder
BAH Rm 425 Buffy/Sarah Floor
WPWP #700
PBA # 170
Head Security Officer GFC
L.O.S.E.R.s

20th Anniversary SO's in no particular order to: Lil'Tree, Maab, Laurence, maverick, ValMichael, Asanti, Arcadia, SweePer, FastEddie, horizon, haven, banana, devil, wolfguard, VaBuffyFan, bec, Grinn, Lady Bathory, Jade, Dianne, Beldin, DarkLady, Witchy Woman, Occido, Blade, AcidCross, EverDawn, SherBear, AngleMan, Lovely Poet, Angela, ?, thy slayer, meteor, Cleio, white wings, Bridget aka Scotlore, kim!, FSM CDMan, Taster's Choice, VT, Cosmic Bob, AKA Becker, Godeater, kooger, kate228, Kate, Sachiel, deadguy, gazoo, Little Willow, 4paws, KitKat, Jubilee, Mircalla, clattering, Candy kane, Icelord, Anne and DELiver, Adina, Macho Macho Man, Corporate Lurker, Darkhorse, RedThunder, Sarah W., Night Owl, -mere-, Margot, fenric, IceFire, kenickie, Leather Jacket, Zeus, WinterRain, SarahNicole, belmont, Buffy13, BuffyBrazil, MeeB, Pixie, Missi, Medusa2306, Manx, hollyn, Gyst, KAM, MTVA, Ali.

Just the ones I remembered off the top of my head.



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white wings says:
(Sat Mar 11 04:05:29 2017 70.112.135.184)
Xanderella - Cut and paste works fine. Nice work! That brings back more memories.

CharlieX - I thought you were one of the C-band watchers, back before they got ugly and encrypted them. I read your summaries, although I didn't find the Internet until the end of Season 3. Thank you for the effort!



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CharlieX says:
(Sat Mar 11 03:42:08 2017 71.63.52.131)
Edited: Sat Mar 11 03:46:49 2017
Hi white wings. waves back Thank you so much.

I remember when towards the end of the series, last several seasons or so, I would use the C-band satellite dish I had and get the episodes on Sunday mornings. The wife and I would watch them and the write a detailed summary of the entire episodes. We would never post spoilers but we did maintain a rather extensive email list of posters that just couldn't wait. It was always fun to come on the Bronze and see so many people waiting for their email notices to go off. *g*


CharlieX le Desincarne
"Love makes you do the wacky"



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Mar says:
(Sat Mar 11 03:40:10 2017 107.199.80.35)
yay joss whedon!

So tempted to load the original VHS
of the launch with all the
interstitial. Alas I don't have a
VHS deck hooked up. So, it is
streaming. Tech sure has changed.

*wavie* ...from the smartphone,
such a nifty thing.



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Xanderella says:
(Sat Mar 11 03:36:05 2017 50.189.48.211)
White wings! Hey there, girl! How are
you? Happy Buffiversary!

Everyone,

I can't remember how to link on the
Beta. I tried an [a href] tag but it didn't
work.



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white wings says:
(Sat Mar 11 03:29:44 2017 70.112.135.184)
Edited: Sat Mar 11 03:30:48 2017
lostinamerica - I wanted to be able to watch on demand, for free, and I didn't want to take chances. *g* When DVDs first came out, they were waiting for the end of the series before putting them out in this country, which I found really annoying. I did at one point get a DVD player that would play region2 disks, because they'd put out DVDs in the UK before they were out in the US. That seems like such a long time ago. And now there just isn't a show that I care about that much.

CharlieX - *waves* Your story was one of the legends of the Bronze.

ETA:

Hey Xanderella!



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Xanderella says:
(Sat Mar 11 03:26:05 2017 50.189.48.211)
Edited: Sat Mar 11 03:34:57 2017
Today, I took a deep, picspam dive into
the BtVS series premiere episodes,
WTTH & TH.

Take a look back with me and enjoy.

http://buff.ly/2mvyWv2

Happy 20th anniversary, Buffy!

Hey, Bronze!



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white wings says:
(Sat Mar 11 03:16:19 2017 70.112.135.184)
wolfguard - Not to mention the hunt for spoilers. ;-) Seriously, waiting did make rewatching a richer experience, and binge watching was a special treat when one could remember having to wait. It created a whole new experience from the same content.

I don't remember not having air conditioning, although we might not have had it when I was a toddler. That was in Port Arthur. I can remember going outside and seeing the air shimmer, or seeing my arm black with mosquitoes and wiping them off. My brother and I also played outside with or without friends, largely unsupervised. It is possible that in the neighborhood, someone's mother was never terribly far, but we were blissfully unaware of it. My father said that having the largest, quietest fan was the highest status symbol, and later in life the houses that he built had air conditioning, and also attic fans, even if they were seldom used.

I do remember staying overnight with an elderly relative who had no AC in the room I was sleeping in, when I was in college. That was when I was introduced to the miracle of fans on either side of the bed, while my parents reminisced about fans blowing over bowls of ice or through damp sheets hung around the bed. It was a godsend later to know about such things when my own AC failed and in the city I did not want to leave windows open while I was alone.



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CharlieX says:
(Sat Mar 11 02:58:31 2017 71.63.52.131)
I can remember way back when I was younger, yes there was a time, I saw that there was this show coming on that I vaguely remembered from this campy movie I once saw. Now, don't get me wrong, I love campy movies. If you could see my hard drive and Netflix queue you'd understand. But, I wasn't sure how a whole show could make it work. Imagine my surprise when I first watched it. I can honestly say it changed my life.

I watched religiously for about a year and a half before I found this wonderful community in the internet. It was just after Innocence and I had a question about something that happened on the show. I can't remember what it was but that soon didn't matter. I found people like me out there that felt the same way about this wonderful show on this new upstart network. And as they say, the rest was history.

Since then, I've met my wife in this place, Lil'Tree, have a wonderful son, Lil'Sprout not so little anymore, and made lots of great friends.

So, that's what Buffy the Vampire Slayer has meant to me.


CharlieX
"Love makes you do the wacky"



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lostinamerica says:
(Sat Mar 11 02:56:11 2017 73.58.129.225)
Agent Cooper--I know, and I
watched Northern Exposure!
He must have been on after I
stopped watching ;)


white wings--Wow, you were
a dedicated viewer ;) I just
remember having to VCR
BTVS, not ATS, maybe
we had cable then?


Irishrose--Hope you get
better soon--schools have been
closing in the area off and on for
a month now, I think there's a
variety of things going around :(


Kiba Rika--My youngest was
a baby when the show started--I
guess 20 years really IS a long
time!

Enjoy your little one--one day you
will turn around around they'll be
packing for college :)


Stake--Gee, are people
still interested in BTVS
after all these years? I mean,
people besides us ;)



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wolfguard says:
(Sat Mar 11 02:38:11 2017 4.28.180.2)
White Wings,

One of the disadvantages of 'watch-on-demand' might be the loss of the time-
between episodes, the time used for anticipation and speculation, analysis and
debate. Poor souls, they know not what they miss. *g*

I didn't experience air conditioning till I was seven or eight. But,
when the kids got a window unit for one bedroom, during the summer I would come
home from play - remember playing outside? *g* - and drape myself over the
unit. I was much smaller then.



WG



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Charity aka Taygeta says:
(Sat Mar 11 02:29:49 2017 204.128.192.33)
*poof*

Just landing to wish everyone a Happy
20th!

Thanks for so many great times here!
Always glad to land back in again! [3



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sweick says:
(Sat Mar 11 01:59:24 2017 174.104.91.179)
Yeah, but there isn't many to use my dentist drill on either.

That was part of the old fun. Talking about eating the newbies, just a modest proposal.

Torturing tweens with thought of their parents having sex, which later became my Joyce/Giles campaign, ended up with Joyce and Giles having sex on the top of a police car (twice).

And the truth about how Oz was EVIL!

Ah, the fun times.



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white wings says:
(Sat Mar 11 01:43:52 2017 70.112.135.184)
sweick - Yours is a name from the olden Boards. *looks around* See, nothing there, it's safe. *g*



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white wings says:
(Sat Mar 11 01:38:48 2017 70.112.135.184)
wolfguard - I understand how you felt about the VCR. I think that back then you usually had to wait until the season ended for the reruns. By that time I had two VCRs recording, but I had no cable. I had to get cable for the move to UPN, as the nearest broadcast was from San Antonio. By the end of the Angel I had a vcr recording off cable, another recording off air, a DVD writer, and a PC recording first runs and reruns. That's nothing compared to valMichael's ceremonial preparations for an episode, but it certainly kept me busy and off the street. Then they started putting out DVDs at the end of each season and a lot of it became unnecessary.

LOL! about the basketball game. I had that happen a few times, but the station was fairly proactive about letting people know when to catch the episode. *g* People growing up will listen to our vicissitudes the same way we listened to the older generation speak of a world without air conditioning.



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wolfguard says:
(Sat Mar 11 01:37:30 2017 4.28.180.2)
Trivia Girl,

1. Charisma Carpenter, who played Cordelia, was Whedons original pick for
the role of Buffy....


I've heard this before, but have also read a different take. I believe the
source was Season Finale: the unexpected rise and fall of the WB and
UPN
. Its story goes that Charisma was late for her call. She walked in
talking rapidly about the traffic and/or directions or phase of the moon being
the cause of her tardiness. One of the execs looked to another and said,
"That's Cordelia."


WG



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wolfguard says:
(Sat Mar 11 01:30:13 2017 4.28.180.2)
Late third season I rewind the tape, pressed play and was "greeted" with a
basketball game. Next day phoned the WB's local affiliate. As soon as I said,
"Buffy ..." the person answering interrupted saying, "It's scheduled for
(tonight)". The station appeared to have had many people calling in about the
programming change. *g*

WG



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wolfguard says:
(Sat Mar 11 01:23:03 2017 4.28.180.2)
Edited: Sat Mar 11 01:24:18 2017
I recorded The Wish on its original airing. Some error happened as it
was rewinding, because I pressed "play" the first thing to appear was The
Master breaking Buffy's neck. What?!?!? Didn't see that coming.


ETA I've vague memories of someone later posting that Joss had been asked for a
spoiler on the episode and he said, ~ everybody dies ~ And most did. *g*


WG



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sweick says:
(Sat Mar 11 01:21:09 2017 174.104.91.179)
Is it safe?

Happy 20th BtVS.



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wolfguard says:
(Sat Mar 11 01:11:42 2017 4.28.180.2)
White Wings,

I'd seen the movie when it came out and noticed a TV guide listing for
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer". I remember thinking, kid's super-hero spin-off.
One night turned on the television and saw a scene with the Master. He
looked campy and the dialogue sounded comedic, so changed channels or turned
the set off.

Few weeks later caught the first airing of Never Kill a Boy on the First
Date
. Wow. Especially moved by Buffy's conversation with Giles at the
end where she concluded, ~ I can't date Owen. He wants to play danger man
and he would die in my world.

I was in front of the set the following Monday. Greeted the second season
premiere with a VCR (though it failed to record the third season premiere,
Anne. (What's the emoticon for anger? *g*) This let me feel what the
scoobies felt when Buffy appeared in the alley in Dead Man's Party -
Buffy!? Where have you been?!

No idea how I discovered the Bronze, but it was immediately after The
Wish
. No lurking. Posted straight away, "Mr. Whedon .... " *g*


WG



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Mar 11 01:05:53 2017 209.159.254.195)
Irishrose So far, I've managed to avoid getting the flu or cold that has been hitting everyone I know. Life and work are pretty good at the moment, although the weather could stand to be better. But at least spring is coming.

TV wise, the only show that is a must see tv is 'Riverdale'. I've fallen off watching Arrow, Flash and Supernatural, they aren't just capturing my interest this season. I hope to catch up with 'Legion', though, that looks like a really out there show.



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Irishrose says:
(Sat Mar 11 00:15:58 2017 74.192.53.183)
ChristopherMarlowe - well, at
the moment i am sitting in bed
nursing a nasty cold/bronchitis.
Other than that...

How are you?



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Mar 11 00:08:36 2017 209.159.254.195)
Irishrose How have you been doing?



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Adri says:
(Sat Mar 11 00:08:26 2017 174.47.78.89)
Happy 20th!
{{{runningtacklehugs|||



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LadyJack says:
(Sat Mar 11 00:02:39 2017 67.240.55.41)
Happy 20th Buffy and Bronzers! The
show and the people I met because
of it changed my life for the
better. Thanks!



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white wings says:
(Fri Mar 10 23:15:07 2017 70.112.135.184)
Happy 20th Anniversary BtVS and the Bronze!

Yay Joss

Memories indeed. I watched BtVS from the beginning. It seemed like a wasteland of a season, and this was a show I hadn't watched. I had to tape it, because at the time I was going out to feed horses when it aired. I watched the first episode, and left the tape in for the second, then the third, and was hooked even before Angel aired. My first ship, and I didn't even know what that was, and came to it without any influence from the Internet. With any luck, my last one, but it was good while ... well, I guess it still is. *g* *pokes wolfguard*

I didn't find the Bronze until the summer of '99, and didn't post until New Years Day, 2000. Partly I was intimidated by the flow, and mostly the only PC I had was state equipment. With Christmas came my own PC and my own IP address. I remember being astonished that many posters found that refrigerator in Buffy's dorm completely normal. Things had changed since my day. *g*

So the BronzeBeta has been here about fourteen years, eight more than the original Bronze, and I am very grateful to Phoenix. It's a wonderful place to pull up a chair and set a spell, and it has a candle in the window for weary Bronzers find their way back. But the old site casts a long shadow and the memory is bright, as is the memory of the first watching of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Mar 10 23:12:46 2017 205.141.67.16)
ah...nice to see some 'old' faces!



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Irishrose says:
(Fri Mar 10 22:32:12 2017 74.192.53.183)
Irishrose strolls into the Beta,
giving a warm wave to all. She
hears the familiar sound of a pint
of Guinness being set in the bar.
She grabs her Guinness, with a
kind nod to the bartender and a
gracious tip in the jar, then
slides into her comfy spot on the
couch to peruse the occupants
discussions.



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RTBS says:
(Fri Mar 10 22:15:39 2017 216.114.219.88)
This is theme to Ruffy's post, the opening theme to Ruffy's post, Ruffy
called me up and asked if I would write a theme song. I'm almost halfway
finished, how do you like it so far? This is theme to RTBS's post....


Ahhh...memories.... I remember how excited I was 20 years ago to see that a
quirky little movie I loved was becoming a TV series. I was blown away at how
much better the show was than the movie. I went on-line the next morning to
see what folks were saying and was curious and intrigued about something I
found on the internet called a "Posting Board" for fans of the show. Hard to
believe that 20 years ago tomorrow I was the 13th poster on the Very. First.
Day.

And, well... you know the rest. Sorry I don't get in here but a couple times
of year, but Happy Anniversary to all my Bronzer Buds.

- RTBS



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BatCat says:
(Fri Mar 10 21:27:42 2017 86.19.139.229)
You guys are all still here!! HELLO. Happy
20th!

I was posting in 2003, maybe 2004ish,
along with my sister Undead. We've been
reliving many happy BTVS memories today
and delighted that this board is still active.

Hope everyone is well. :)



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Ripley says:
(Fri Mar 10 21:09:36 2017 70.197.80.184)
Happy 20th Bronzers!



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wolfguard says:
(Fri Mar 10 19:48:41 2017 71.56.125.67)
Drive-By

nails,

Your, "Well it was twenty years ago today.
Mr Whedon taught the girl to Slay.


This is just ... Neat. *g*


WG



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MarsGirl says:
(Fri Mar 10 19:39:30 2017 73.4.182.239)
Just popping in to say happy 20th!!!



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wolfguard says:
(Fri Mar 10 19:29:47 2017 71.56.125.67)
Drive-By

"That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!"

Cosmic Bob - Hear! Hear! *G*


Trivia Girl,

"16. Graduation Day was delayed and rewritten due to the Columbine school shooting. The story involves the destruction of Sunnydale High School with explosives by the show's heroes. That central element was kept, although certain statements by them were removed.

This is incorrect by omission. While Graduation Day 2 was postponed, because of concerns about school violence, it was Earshot (3.18) that got postponed because of the Columbine shootings which happened 20 April 1999, around a week before the episode was to air.1

From the shooting script of Earshot, courtesy of Buffyworld.com

Buffy, dazed, walks toward a table. It's impossible to pick out any one thought anymore... it's cacophony. Buffy sways. Then the cacophony fades. All the noise of the room fades away, and one voice sounds alone. It's whispery, harsh and distorted. It could be male or female, and it's definitely crazy.

KILLER (V.O.)
This time tomorrow, I kill you all.

End of Act II


From Act III ...

XANDER
Yeah. I mean, who hasn't just idly
thought about taking out the whole
place with a semi-automatic?
(off their looks)
I said idly.

BUFFY
I know the difference. He, she,
whoever, they meant it. They're
going to do it.



Graduation Day 1 aired as scheduled, but Graduation Day 2 was pulled and aired July 13. As I recall, Earshot and/or GD2 may have aired as scheduled in Canada where some fans videotaped the show. And as I recall, Joss may have posted to those folks, ~~ share those puppies ~~ and was then criticized by the network for saying it.



1 To September 21, 1999 - just before the 4th season premiere. This created around 7 week gap in new episodes (Enemies 16 March and Choices 4 May 1999).



WG



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IMMORTAL says:
(Fri Mar 10 18:50:27 2017 174.44.41.79)
Behind the bedroom door comes an incessant beeping. The door opens and someone
heads over to the bed, kneels and pulls a duffel bag from underneath. The
duffel bag is unzipped, among the contents revealed include a talisman, a
potion...and a stake. A hand reaches further into the bag...Buffy holds a
beeper in front of her face to read the number. Suddenly a voice shouts out,
"Hurry up Mom! I'm going to be late for school!" Buffy sighs, "Why can't the
Apocalypse ever happen on a weekend?" Happy Anniversary my peeps!
#buffyslays20



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DeMoriel says:
(Fri Mar 10 17:56:24 2017 76.170.73.46)
Kiba last I checked, you were a
baby! We all were!!!!!

Happy 20th Buffy!

One of my coworkers cut dialogue on Angel
and one of the coolest gifts he gave me was
his 100th episode t-shirt :)
It has the whole plot of the show written on the back.

-DeM



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Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Mar 10 17:18:38 2017 199.168.151.175)
Wow, For a moment I thought somebody had posted an archived page down there. :-)

Nice to see some old time posters come back to visit.

Trivia Girl: I actually remember the infamous coffee commercials. Yes, I am old.

Wait, James Marsters was in Northern Exposure? Who knew!



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Kiba Rika says:
(Fri Mar 10 17:14:40 2017 162.198.200.133)
Hi everybody. Happy anniversary!

I'm a doctoral student and I have a
baby.

What's new with you?

Yay Joss!

Kiba Rika
s-joss-d



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Trivia Girl says:
(Fri Mar 10 16:29:46 2017 205.141.67.16)
Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a hugely successful television series on WB and UPN from 1997-2003. Writer and producer Joss Whedon, long heavily constrained by the requirements of others, finally had the opportunity to create a series that was completely his own. Whedon had worked on it for years, first selling the screenplay in 1988 for a film version which was released in 1992. The story had been shredded and reworked into a campy, funny movie that Whedon loathed.
After five years, he was able to launch a darker, more dramatic, but still funny television series which captured the imagination of a generation of fans. Here are eighteen facts that you might not know about that show:
1. Charisma Carpenter, who played Cordelia, was Whedons original pick for the role of Buffy. Sarah Michelle Gellar was slated to play Cordelia. Gellar had to lobby Whedon heavily before he would allow her to read for the lead role.
2. When she was five, Sarah Michelle Gellar starred in a Burger King commercial that disparaged McDonalds burgers. She was promptly named in a lawsuit by McDonalds and had to give a deposition in the case.

3. If you were watching US television during the early 1990s, you may have spotted Anthony Stewart Head (Giles) in a series of 13 commercials for Tasters Choice coffee which imagined Head as the wooing paramour of a new divorcee. The role somewhat typecasted him, so Head came to Los Angeles during pilot season in order to find a very different sort of role.
4. The name Giles came from Barbara Giles, Whedons housematron when he attended a private high school in the UK.
5. Nicholas Brendon (Xander) has a stutter.
6. James Marsters (Spike) first role was in a fourth-grade production of Winnie the Pooh. He played the role of Eeyore and fell in love with acting. His professional debut came years later in a stage production of Shakespeares The Tempest. He had a nude scene in that play and has been comfortable performing unclad ever since. Marsters later broke into television as a bellhop on Northern Exposure. He returned the next season to play the role of a priest.
7. Can you imagine Spike with a deep Southern accent? Because that was Whedons original plan before casting Marsters.
8. Sunnydales ZIP code would place the town in Morgan Hill, California.
9. Sarah Michelle Gellar has a pronounced fear of cemete
10. Whedon was inspired for The Gentlemen in the episode Hush from, in part, Mr. Burns from The Simpsons. This episode, a fan favorite, received two Emmy nominations for writing and cinematography.
11. The Sunnydale weatherman in the episodes "Amends" and "Hush" is a real-life weatherman -- Mark Kriski of KTLA in Los Angeles.
12. Buffy occasionally made favorable references to Xena: Warrior Princess. The writers of Xena returned the favor by mentioning a play called Buffus the Bacchae Slayer in their episode The Plays the Thing.
13. The show was the central metaphor that terrorism expert Anthony Cordesman used in a major 2002 treatise called Biological Warfare and the Buffy Paradigm. Cordesman explained that Buffy was about a teenage vampire slayer who lives in a world of unpredictable threats where each series of crises only becomes predictable when it is over.
14. The Simpsons was a leading inspiration for Whedons work in Buffy. Whedon wrote If I could write for any show, it would be The Simpsons and Twin Peaks...As much as you could say that Buffy is a cross between 90210 and The X-Files, you could say its a cross between
15. The episode I Was Made for You has Warren building a robotic girlfriend who goes crazy and becomes destructive. The role was written with Britney Spears in mind, but she turned it down.
16. Graduation Day was delayed and rewritten due to the Columbine school shooting. The story involves the destruction of Sunnydale High School with explosives by the show's heroes. That central element was kept, although certain statements by them were removed.

17. The musical episode Once More, With Feeling, lasted 68 minutes during its first run. It was edited down for subsequent rebroadcasts. Much of the episode is sung. Even the mutant in the Mutant Enemy trademark at the very end of the credits sings. That name, by the way, comes from a line in the song And You, And I by Yes
18. Vera Wang designed Buffys wedding dress in The Prom, as well as the dress that Sarah Michelle Gellar wore to her own wedding.



^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Fri Mar 10 15:28:57 2017 96.87.54.73)
Happy 20th anniversary!

Yay Joss!



^ v
pumpkin says:
(Fri Mar 10 15:15:32 2017 205.178.112.73)
Wow. Happy 20th all!



^ v
Mazzy says:
(Fri Mar 10 14:41:15 2017 65.51.170.210)
*
Just popping in to say "Happy Anniversary" Buffy the Vampire Slayer and to all Buffy fans! It's been ages since I popped in here, and I don't remember my password, so hope this works! I just wanted to take a moment to thank all of you for making this place possible and for keeping it going all of these years. It's an amazing feeling to be able to just pop in now again, and see that it is still up. We are an strong and unique community, and I'm proud to be a small part of it.



^ v
Stake says:
(Fri Mar 10 14:29:59 2017 89.101.121.132)
Wow, I can't believe how many usernames I
recognise from all those years ago.. How
wonderful.

I adored this site, especially after the
original WB board went down. Nostalgia led
me to google it today, and it's so heartening
to see it's still active.

I guess leaving school, going away to
college, meant that I lost touch with an
online BtVS community. I can honestly say
the show, and this board, changed my life.
After writing my undergraduate thesis on
Buffy and completing my Masters, I've been
working as a Film&Media lecturer for the
past 10 years. Buffy is still on at least one of
my syllabus every Semester.

Keep doing what you're doing, folks. As far
as I'm concerned, this site was the original,
first through the vanguard, online fan
culture. You're all true pioneers!



^ v
nails says:
(Fri Mar 10 14:07:21 2017 193.39.159.73)
Well it was twenty years ago today.
Mr Whedon taught the girl to Slay.

Yay Joss!

Happy Buffday everyone!



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Mar 10 14:03:33 2017 209.159.254.195)
Today is Friday, March 10th 2017 C.E.

We have TWO (2) Birthdays and ONE (1) Anniversary!


Anwyn-na-gig
Buffy the Vampire Slayer Anniversary
Piper Angel (Angelique's childe)

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Anwyn-na-gig, Piper Angel


Happy Anniversary to the premiere episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer!

"Zombies! Hyena people! Snyder!" Student, 'The Prom'

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Mar 10 13:54:21 2017 209.159.254.195)
yay joss whedon!


Happy Buffy the Vampire Slayer 20th Anniversary!



^ v
Cosmic Bob says:
(Fri Mar 10 13:41:20 2017 104.129.196.197)
20 years...

"That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!"

Cosmic Bob
I Now Have Titles
"I'm Buffy. The Vampire Slayer. And you are?"



^ v
Thumper says:
(Fri Mar 10 12:12:16 2017 220.240.250.106)
Who can believe it's been 20 years

It was a wonderfully rich engrossing
storeys that made me laugh and cry
and will live on forever

Thumper
The silly rabbit
in a Ty way



^ v
Dogmeat says:
(Fri Mar 10 11:43:15 2017 72.226.63.219)
yay joss whedon!


Happy Buffy the Vampire Slayer 20th
Anniversary!



^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Fri Mar 10 11:29:10 2017 100.6.23.183)
Edited: Fri Mar 10 11:29:51 2017
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for joss whedon!

yay joss whedon!


Happy Buffy the Vampire Slayer 20th Anniversary!



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Mar 10 08:08:18 2017 71.56.125.67)
From the pen of Joss Whedon ....

WILLOW
Well, I'll never forget it. None of it.

GILES
Good. Next time you'll be prepared.

XANDER
Next time?

WILLOW
Next time is why?

GILES
We stopped the master from freeing himself and
opening the mouth of Hell. Doesn't mean he'll
stop trying. I'd say the fun is just beginning.

WILLOW
More vampires?

GILES
Not just vampires. The next creature we face may
be something quite different.

BUFFY
I can hardly wait.

GILES
We're at a center of mystical convergence here.
We may in fact stand between the earth and total
destruction.

XANDER
Buffy, this isn't good.

BUFFY
Well, I gotta look on the bright side. Maybe I
can still get kicked out of school.

She smiles at Giles and starts off, the other two keeping up with her.
XANDER
Hey, that's a plan. 'Cause a lot of schools
aren't on Hellmouths.

WILLOW
Maybe you could blow something up. They're really
strict about that.

BUFFY
I was aiming for a subtle approach, like
excessive not studying.

Giles watches them go, an uneasy smile plastered on his lips.

GILES
The earth is doomed.



Happy 20th Buffy, Xander, Willow, & Giles




WG



^ v
Shan says:
(Fri Mar 10 07:11:40 2017 122.104.9.121)
Oh good. More political junk.

Spoiler:

1. It's not real.

2. Based on current performance, this administration couldn't put on a metaphorical pair of pants with assistance, never mind a lawsuit.

... How useless does a Republican administration have to be for the apologists to stop apologising for it? The answer is obviously that that bar has to be even lower.

I guess I'd better start digging a ditch to put it in.

Or I would but I'm off again. More than ten years of this since we moved here and it's still like a gushing sewer pipe on full pressure.



^ v
Maverick says:
(Fri Mar 10 03:57:03 2017 69.244.158.94)




^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Mar 10 02:38:10 2017 4.28.180.2)
OldManFan,

But we didn't have spoiler fonts, did we?

The embarrassing mistakes I have to post to draw out lurkers. *g*



WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Mar 10 02:37:49 2017 209.159.254.195)
OldManFan, wolfguard Tag slaying! I remeber that. The bronze welcome wagon, the Friday Nite quizzes. Dem good old days.



^ v
OldManFan says:
(Fri Mar 10 01:25:03 2017 100.6.23.183)
wolfguard - The Bronze had
bold, italic, blinking, invisible
and several size options. There
were "tag hunters" ready to post if
someone would forget to close a tag
and leave the entire board blinking
or invisible.

OMF



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Mar 10 01:23:09 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard That's old skool posting! Maybe we'll get lucky and a have a few more folks posting tomorrow.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Mar 10 00:15:54 2017 4.28.180.2)
I do not remember the Bronze allowing you to preview or edit posts. I don't
remember if you could do write tags for italic or bold font, or size. I
definitely remember there were no spoiler tags. Instead we would do some
variation of ...

SPOILER on 'Phases'

7
6
5
4
3
2
1

OZ is the werewolf!!!

1
2
3
4
5
6
7

SPOILER on 'Phases'



WG



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Mar 10 00:08:02 2017 4.28.180.2)
Edited: Fri Mar 10 00:12:24 2017
Agent Cooper,

I joined the Bronze during the original airing of third season in the fall of
1998. That Bronze closed its door when BtVS ended its contract with the WB at
the end of fifth season, ~ May 2001. Sometime between then and the beginning of
BtVS' sixth season on UPN the Bronze Beta appeared.

WG



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Mar 9 23:16:18 2017 205.141.67.16)
Sunnydales Trivial Pursuit

Category: Movies
Question: Who was the actress who played the woman in red in The Woman in Red?
Answer: Kelly LeBrock

Trivia In the Blac: OldManFan, notsoShyGirl
Trivia In the Red: Agent Cooper and Maverick!



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Mar 9 21:50:59 2017 199.168.151.175)
***CORRECTION TO PREVIOUS POST
Make that the Summer of 1998. Hard to type something coherent at whup.



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Mar 9 21:20:37 2017 199.168.151.175)
Wow, twenty years.

I didn't discover BTVS until, let's see....the summer of 2008 I think. I had heard of the series and was aware of it in a vague way, but had never tuned in.

I remember my first ep vividly. I had just changed started a new position in another dept at my company and was regretting it. It was a very hard transition at first. I remember it was a very stressful time.

Anyway, I had come home from work, mentally drained and kind of depressed. Just wanted to collapse but realized I was literally out of clothes and needed to go to my parent's house and do laundry. (My apartment had no laundry facility, and my folks were close by.)

So there I was hanging out at mom and dad's, waiting for my laundry to finish and feeling sorry for myself, idly flipping through channels on the TV. And there's that show I heard about, Buffy something.

I thought the opening credits were kind of cool, so I watched. It was a summer re-run of "Inca Mummy Girl". I was hooked instantly and became a fan after that day.

I can't remember when I stumbled onto the Bronze. I know I didn't post right away. It was booming back then and there were tons of regulars, but it was still kind of a cliquey, tight knit environment that was not always friendly to newbies. When I first posted it didn't go well. I think I actually got called a Bezoar. :-) But that was partly my fault. I was new at posting in general and didn't have any chops. I had a different name then.

Then I lurked for a long time and got my act together and started posting again. It's funny but I can't remember when I started posting with this name. I think it was around the tail end of the board that preceded this one. I do remember how sad everybody was when the previous site was going to go dark. Some of the posters had known each other for years and had developed relationships having been on together since the beginning at the TV James thingy.

It's odd to me that I can't remember how I discovered Bronze Beta, I don't know if this was in works during the last days of the original Bronze or if I found it later.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Mar 9 20:01:42 2017 71.56.125.67)
Edited: Thu Mar 9 20:03:39 2017
Drive-By

Lostinamerica,

Richard III?

Henry IV?

*g*


WG



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Mar 9 19:36:56 2017 199.168.151.175)
Trivia Girl: Gilda Radner



^ v
Maverick says:
(Thu Mar 9 19:29:59 2017 69.244.158.94)
Trivia Girl: Pamela Sue Martin was in "The Lady in Red."


Maverick


Chris Beck's Theme from "Sacrifice" and "The Gift" (sequenced by Noella Choi)




^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Mar 9 16:34:16 2017 96.87.54.73)
Trivia Girl
Following on OldManFan's heels...Kelly LeBrock



^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Thu Mar 9 16:32:01 2017 100.6.23.183)
Edited: Thu Mar 9 16:34:22 2017
Shan - I have a list of possible posters. I pick the next name on the
list, then move it to the bottom of the list. I also have a list of those who
have not posted in many moons. Every once in a while I scan the current list
for those who haven't posted in a long time and move them to the other list.
As soon as I realize someone is posting again, I add them back to the list. I
got the list from deadguy 12 or so years ago.



^ v
OldManFan says:
(Thu Mar 9 16:20:51 2017 100.6.23.183)
Trivia Girl - Kelly LeBrock.

OMF



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Mar 9 15:50:50 2017 205.141.67.16)
Sunnydales Trivial Pursuit

Category: Movies
Question: Who was the actress who played the woman in red in The Woman in Red?



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Mar 9 14:08:09 2017 209.159.254.195)
Today is Thursday, March 9th 2017 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!


Buffy-Addict
Buffy'sTB
Kallie
Nicholas King
No Surprises
Puckles
Rachel
Skyler

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Buffy-Addict, Buffy'sTB, Kallie, Nicholas King, No Suprises, Puckles, Rachel, Skyler!



Buffy: So how'd she get away with the bad mojo stuff? Anya: Giles sold it to her. Giles: Well, I didn't know it was her. I mean, how could I? If it's any consolation, I may have overcharged her. 'Shadow''

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Mar 9 13:59:24 2017 209.159.254.195)
yay shan!



Happy CD Thursday!

Shan I think it was mostly random, but sometimes it's pretty nice to be able to give folks a 'yay' to cheer them up!



^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Thu Mar 9 13:33:42 2017 73.58.129.225)
wolfguard--Yes, I'd heard
that, that Joss had a hand in his
own show's demise :(

As for your questions. . .the
creator bears the ultimate
responsibility for a show. It's
his or her show, so he or she is
the one who has the vision and
chooses the actors and directs the
writers who best represent that
vision. Doesn't the creator have
the final say if an actor or
actress doesn't turn out to be
quite right for a part or a
storyline doesn't fit the grand
scheme of things? Joss was not
only the creator but the producer
of BTVS, so he basically is
the one who decides everything,
isn't he?

Uneasy lies the head that wears a
crown ;)


Belated Yay! Ozlady!


Yay! Shan!



^ v
Shan says:
(Thu Mar 9 13:15:40 2017 114.75.82.11)
Uh ... Thanks?

You know, in all this time, I never asked how this worked.



^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Thu Mar 9 12:20:19 2017 100.6.23.183)
Edited: Thu Mar 9 12:20:43 2017
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for shan!

yay shan!



Happy CD Thursday!



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Mar 9 09:24:59 2017 71.56.125.67)
Yay Ozlady!


Happy Birthday Lostinamerica!!!




Deadguy Memorial Angel Wednesday Question

If mst3k were to do BtVS, which episodes would you want to see?

"The Zeppo"



Good Night to All

WG



^ v
Shan says:
(Thu Mar 9 07:56:17 2017 114.75.82.11)
I remember there was talk on the old WB buffy.com board about the setup switch to here and then it was set up and those of us who wanted to came across.

And here we've been ever since given the odd year or two here and there that I haven't visited and/or posted.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Mar 9 05:00:07 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

I only have three memories about the posting sites of that summer. First, the
end of the Bronze. So many bronzers, so many colors. *g* I then remember a
threaded board started by one bronzer and that seemed to cater to a clique. And
then I remember posting as before, mostly discussing how 6th season would deal
with Buffy's death - and assumed return. It was very Bronze-like, so was
probably the Bronze Beta. Oh, my speculation was the details of how Buffy
returned would not matter so much, rather the consequences of her return would
shape the story. *g*

WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Mar 9 04:24:07 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard I remember a time between when the Buffy moved from the CW to UPN or something? There was a version of the bronze then, but it didn't last long.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Mar 9 04:12:03 2017 4.28.180.2)
Edited: Thu Mar 9 04:12:37 2017
Shan,

I believe that's what Christopher Marlowe was referring to. I first
discovered the Bronze in the fall of the third season, believe just after
the airing of The Wish. As I understand it, this Bronze was sponsored
by the WB.1 Almost as soon as the WB aired 5th season's finale,
The Gift, the Bronze was closed. During last day or two, the site's
webmasters released the color codes letting anyone who wanted post in
colors. Many did.

During the summer of 2001 several sites appeared appealing to BtVS fans. I
tried one, but found it somewhat exclusive. Sometime during the summer the
Bronze Beta appeared and has survived to this very day, thanks to the
efforts of Phoenix and Artie and those who provided financial
support.

1 There may have been an earlier Bronze site, though it may have
just been a different format. I associate it with TV James. One of
the ancient ones probably remembers the details. KAM may know of it.


WG



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Mar 9 03:28:50 2017 4.28.180.2)
Edited: Thu Mar 9 03:30:08 2017
Shan,

I believe the person with most weight in speaking for the Bronze Beta is
Phoenix.

ETA That said, any individual bronzer has a right to reply as an individual
fan.


WG



^ v
Shan says:
(Thu Mar 9 02:48:51 2017 161.43.217.70)
I came here from the WB's buffy.com
original migration as well, is that
what you're referring to?



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Mar 9 02:27:53 2017 209.159.254.195)
Shan I'm not sure, there isn't many of us left on the beta, although there is an equivalent on facebook. Even the beta isn't original, just the latest iteration.



^ v
Shan says:
(Thu Mar 9 02:09:59 2017 161.43.217.70)
20 years of Buffy the Vampire Slayer: share your stories and photos

I could see how mentioning the board could be a double-edged sword, so I thought I'd better run past everyone whether:

a) We should even make a submission?
b) What it should say if we did.
c) Who should do it.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Mar 9 01:50:03 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard Mind you, I haven't actually seen any of the comments, but I just know how it usually goes.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Mar 9 01:35:19 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

Thank you for the warning. *g*

WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Mar 9 01:13:27 2017 209.159.254.195)
wplfguard A vast majority of those comments wouldn't be worth reading anyways. *g* Comments go downhill rather quickly!



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Mar 8 23:55:42 2017 209.159.254.195)
Sunnydales Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who sired Darla a second time?
Answer: Drusilla

Trivia Master: notsoShyGirl!



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Mar 8 19:37:12 2017 71.56.125.67)
Drive-By

Christopher Marlowe,

Just finished reading the Scott Adam's piece. Quick comments ...

(1) For the purpose of discussion, I can accept the 'fairness' and 'morality' distinction as a first approximation; however,

(2) I see them more as types of criteria than as forms of 'magical thinking'. Adam's meaning of 'magical thinking' differs from my experience of its meaning.

To me, magical thinking involves a faulty attribution of cause-and-effect links or association. For instance, "Saying it will make it happen." An example, "Don't jinx it!" (by speaking of or about it).

(3) I strongly agree with the reasoning that one is more likely to persuade another by using their own worldview in making the argument.

(4) Adam's "high ground" concepts likely shows his own prejudices which he escapes from attributing to the rest of us by his use of "might".1

(5) I share his feeling expressed as, "...I choose to delegate my opinion on this topic to women because they have the most skin in the game and I have no special insight to improve the quality of the decisions..."

(6) I read first five or six comments to the article and found them useful and interesting. But, not time to read all 1,200 plus comments. *g*

(7) Prior to your link to his article, I had never heard of Adams.


1 What makes me think this is item 1 ...

"...1. The Federal government (and their Supreme Court puppets) should get out of the business of deciding on womens reproductive rights..."

(emphasis added)



WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Mar 8 18:49:25 2017 205.141.67.16)
yay ozlady!

deadguy qod

If Joel and the 'bots were to riff an ep of Buffy, I'd love for them to substitute their dialogue for the lack of it in Hush, or perhaps do Restless.

Happy non-Angel Wednesday!



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Mar 8 18:20:05 2017 71.56.125.67)
Drive-By

Lostinamerica,

I can appreciate having to write under the gun; however, according to David Fury it was Joss who tripped that trigger by essentially demanding the network make an early decision on renewal. Perhaps Joss should have thought about how the story would go if the network chose cancellation? OTOH, since Joss felt confident enough to demand a decision, he probably didn't think he'd need a fall-back storyline.

That said, the bigger question ...

Creator - Writer - Character - Director - Actor

1) Who bears the most responsibility for a character's behavior?

2) Who bears the most responsibility for a storyline?


Related ...

Does the character determine the storyline or does the storyline determine the character's actions?



WG



^ v
Comma says:
(Wed Mar 8 17:58:42 2017 75.143.154.113)
I think that a lot of us always thought that Joss would, at some future time, give us a Angel special, TV/Movie, show to finish out the BtVS/Angel saga. Ed Wood could have done a better dragon!

Comma



^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Mar 8 15:54:55 2017 96.87.54.73)
Trivia Girl
Drusilla



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Mar 8 15:25:57 2017 205.141.67.16)
Sunnydales Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who sired Darla a second time?



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Mar 8 15:25:37 2017 199.127.148.10)
lostinamerica True, but the writers don't exist within the Buffyverse, which is how we were arguing.



^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Wed Mar 8 13:57:01 2017 100.6.23.183)
Edited: Wed Mar 8 13:58:12 2017
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for ozlady!

yay ozlady!

today's deadguy memorial angel wednesday question is brought to you by:

mystery science theater 3000 - the buffy editions

if mst3k were to do btvs, which episodes would you want to see?


Happy non-Angel Wednesday!



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Mar 8 13:45:42 2017 205.141.67.16)
lostinamerica Where did the time go??



^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Wed Mar 8 13:09:54 2017 73.58.129.225)
Ahh, it's been 20 years since
BTVS, wow!


wolfguard, DaddyCatALSO--
Not Fade Away wasn't
Angel's fault but the writers, for
not giving us a better, more
believable last story arc :)


Belated Yay! Sarah's Carl!


Happy Birthday me!



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Mar 8 12:44:38 2017 209.159.254.195)
Today is Wednesday, March 8th 2017 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!


JoAnne
LadyVamp
lostinamerica
NTMT
Sam Hain
thatcrazytara

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to JoAnne, LadyVamp, lostinamerica, NTMT, Sam Hain, thatcrazytara!



I always thought the name Serenity had a vaguely funereal sound to it.Simon, 'Out Of Gas'

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
Shan says:
(Wed Mar 8 09:31:42 2017 114.75.120.80)
Christopher Marlowe

Less narcissist than arc-



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Mar 8 06:52:38 2017 71.56.125.67)
Edited: Wed Mar 8 06:56:32 2017
Yay Sarah's Carl!!


Happy Birthday Larry Bagby III!




Christopher Marlowe,

You ask, "Was it ethical of Giles to put Buffy through that test in Helpless"


TRAVERS
Miss Summers- Buffy, I can sense your
resistance. I don't blame you, but I think
your watcher hasn't reminded you lately
of the relative status of the players in our
little game. The Council fights evil. The
Slayer is the instrument
with which we
fight. The Council remains. The
Slayers... change. It's been that way
from the beginning.

From Checkpoint

TRAVERS
The Cruciamentum is not easy. For
slayer or watcher. But it's been done
this way for a dozen centuries.
Whenever a slayer turns eighteen.
It's a time-honored rite of passage-

...A slayer must be more
than physical prowess. She must
have cunning, imagination... a
confidence derived from self-reliance.
Believe me, once this is all over - your
Buffy will be stronger for it.

From Helpless


The Council believes the Cruciamentum serves a useful purpose in developing the Slayer's morale. She will discover her ability to think on her feet under pressure. She will learn it's her mind and not her body that will see her through the toughest tasks.

Likely Giles swore an oath when he became a member of the Council. He may even have sworn a second oath when being entrusted with the Slayer. In telling Buffy what was happening he likely broke the oath and in doing so acted unethically.

That said ...

GILES
(cutting him off)
It's an antiquated exercise in
cruelty. Locking her in this tomb...
weakened, defenseless...
(re: Kralik's crate)
unleashing that on her.

And in the second to the last scene ...

TRAVERS
Your affection for your charge has
rendered you incapable of clear and
impartial judgment. You have a father's
love for the child and that is useless
to the cause.

Both from Helpless

We see Giles was no longer seeing himself as her watcher alone. He felt guilt in betraying Buffy. He could not bear seeing her placed in such danger. Morally, he could not let the proceedings continue so he tried to stop it.

We know Joss' position, one shared by most all fans. Evil patriarchy using young women as tools for their own needs. And yet, did not the writers use the characters similarly? Did Giles stop the exercise? He was late to the game, though he did stop the minion vampire. Was Buffy mentally stronger for having undergone the exercise? Absolutely.

My personal opinion is the Cruciamentum was a flawed exercise, because it risked damaging or destroying the bond of trust I believe must exist between a Slayer and her watcher. If a Slayer was told in advance and had a choice, then the Cruciamentum is a valid exercise.

And of course, Buffy ran a similar exercise with some of the potentials in season 7.


Excerpts are from the shooting scripts, courtesy of Buffyworld.com


ETA Oops

Deadguy Memorial Buffy Tuesday Question

Are you doing anything special to celebrate the 20th anniversary of Buffy the
Vampire Slayer?


Darn tooting



Good Night to All

WG



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Mar 8 06:21:09 2017 71.56.125.67)
Shan,

One of my goddaughters prefers AtS to BtVS. There's no accounting for taste. *g*


Christopher Marlowe,

Micro.

I read ~ 3/4 of Scott Adam's piece, before deciding to set it aside for tomorrow night. Have to post on the ethics topic. *g*


WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Mar 8 04:44:17 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard Macro or micro?

Shan What led me to that link was an article about Scott predicting Trump's win and how Scott is also a narcissist. So I visited his blog and read couple entries.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Mar 8 04:03:46 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

I'm helping someone with economics. I will reply on ethics question before the
night is over. *g*

WG



^ v
Shan says:
(Wed Mar 8 03:55:41 2017 114.75.120.80)
Problem with that Christopher Marlowe is that it's from Scott Adams.



^ v
Shan says:
(Wed Mar 8 03:50:32 2017 114.75.120.80)
Except that's not actually what happened. People independently came to the conclusion for various reasons that they personally thought Angel [[more than]] Buffy in terms of TV shows and then when one person would say they believed that with their reasons, other people would join the thread and say the same thing with similar or more differing reasoning.

We're also aware that as far as I know Buffy had greater viewing figures than Angel over its run so as a community, I think that was our majority view but probably not in the wider sense.

However, like the discussion over which of the first two Terminator films is the better of the two, it's generally not dismissed out of hand to hold the position that T1 (more than) T2 even by people who disagree with it i.e. it's not considered an unbelievable proposition to people who don't agree with it.

Same with this situation as well, we've had similar discussions along those lines which have been quite illuminating and very civil regardless of which side of the debate you're on.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Mar 8 03:13:55 2017 209.159.254.195)
Edited: Wed Mar 8 03:14:34 2017
wolfguard I was surfing, as one does on the internet and ran across this blog entry by Scott Adams, the creator of the comic Dilbert

How to Persuade the other party



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Mar 8 02:36:56 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard Ok, maybe we can try it a bit local. Was it ethical of Giles to put Buffy through that test in Helpless?



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Mar 8 01:21:11 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

No individual comes to mind.


Shan,

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause
and reflect.
- Mark Twain


WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Mar 8 00:57:12 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard Do any well-known indviduals come to mind when you think about ethical or moral individuals? I keep thinking of the Pope.



^ v
Shan says:
(Wed Mar 8 00:53:36 2017 114.75.120.80)
Yes, that I know.

It's not so much a folk myth but a falsehood popularised by the Disney Corporation c.1958.

We at the AV Club know to stop short at the edge of a cliff, for starters.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Mar 8 00:26:00 2017 4.28.180.2)
Shan,

There is a folk myth that lemmings commit mass suicide by leaping off cliffs.
From that comes the saying, ~ How can a thousand lemmings be wrong? ~, as a
satirical reply to arguments based on popular belief.

WG



^ v
Shan says:
(Wed Mar 8 00:11:09 2017 114.75.120.80)
What do lemmings have to do with anything?



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Mar 7 23:57:46 2017 4.28.180.2)
Shan,

I've never much judged a work based on popular acclaim for or against it. Are a
thousand lemmings right? *g*

WG



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Mar 7 23:28:05 2017 205.141.67.16)
Category: Buffy
Question: What year did Buffy the Vampire Slayer premiere?
Answer: 1997

Trivia Old Timers: notsoShyGirl
Trivia Newcomers: Comma!



^ v
Shan says:
(Tue Mar 7 23:22:12 2017 114.75.120.80)
Edited: Tue Mar 7 23:23:48 2017
Angel the Series (is greater than/more than symbol) Buffy the Vampire Slayer is probably the majority opinion at the AV Club commentariat, myself included.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Mar 7 23:19:48 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

When I first read your post thought you were referring to where the scoobies
went after Chosen and why they did. *g*

WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Mar 7 23:05:14 2017 205.141.67.16)
wolfguard California was giving them a better deal, more tax breaks, I think.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Mar 7 22:21:07 2017 4.28.180.2)
- After Prophecy Girl Buffy spent the summer in LA.

- After Becoming 2 Buffy left home and spent the summer working out-
of-town (LA?).

- After Graduation Day 2 Buffy spent the summer in Sunnydale. In
The Freshman, she reminds Willow ~ it's been a slay-heavy summer.

- After Restless Buffy spent the summer in Sunnydale, "hunting".
That's what she told Giles at the end of Buffy vs Dracula.

- After The Gift, Buffy spent the summer in what she described as
'Heaven'.

- After Grave ... well, we don't know. We do know Giles took Willow
to England. Xander likely spent the summer in Sunnydale helping build the
new Sunnydale High School. I imagine it was more likely than not that Buffy
and Dawn remained in Sunnydale.


Which leads to after Chosen, where did Buffy and company go? It
looked like the bus was on a state road, not on major highway, but a few
left's or right's and they could have headed up or down the coast.

To where? If there had been an eighth season, when and where would it have
started? As I remember the first comic, it may have started six odd months
after Chosen with the scoobies based in Scotland. But, the comic did
not come out for several years. If an 8th season had followed precedent,
then it would have begun in the fall. Would Joss have still set in in
Scotland? Would the scoobies have gone straight to Scotland from Sunnydale
or would there have been places in between?

When Buffy climbed back into the bus, where would you have advised her to
direct the driver, since 'Home, Giles' would not suffice?



WG



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Mar 7 21:38:32 2017 199.127.148.10)
wolfguard a Point



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Mar 7 21:29:40 2017 4.28.180.2)
DaddyCatALSO,

Angel and company could have walked out the door. Instead, he executed a
suicide mission for minimal gain. If he survived the alley fight, he should
have been staked.

WG



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Mar 7 20:18:32 2017 199.127.148.10)
wolfguard Shan I see "Not Fade Away" as Angel's aiming to make the best of a no-win situation from which there was no real escape, and have the largest impact he could imagine in the process.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Mar 7 19:33:15 2017 71.56.125.67)
Drive-By

DaddyCatALSO,

I now remember that explosion.


Christopher Marlowe,

What was the reason the article gave for the move back to Hollywood?


Shan,

Read the AV article. Near the end it talks about AtS, saying at times it was better than BtVS. With a couple exceptions, I cannot think of a single AtS episode that was better than the average BtVS episodes unless the episode included a cross-over component (e.g. the six with Faith, Damage and The Girl in Question). Fourth season was a disaster (except for the Faith trilogy). Not Fade Away showed Angel foolish in the extreme. What an idiot.


WG



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Mar 7 17:51:30 2017 199.127.148.10)
Comma What you mean "now," big fella?



^ v
Comma says:
(Tue Mar 7 17:28:42 2017 75.143.154.113)
Trivia Girl: Trick question. The movie was 1992. The TV show was twenty years ago today, 3/7/97.

Anyone feeling old right now?

Comma



^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Tue Mar 7 16:49:54 2017 96.87.54.73)
Edited: Tue Mar 7 17:17:59 2017
Trivia Girl
It was twenty years ago today (day, not date), that Buffy taught the gang to
slay...
with a nod to Lennon/McCartney


March 10, 1997



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Mar 7 16:18:30 2017 205.141.67.16)
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What year did Buffy the Vampire Slayer premiere?



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Mar 7 15:23:11 2017 199.127.148.10)
deadguy Memorial Quod Nope



wolfguard I'm just imagining a scene where Kaylee is working on a difficult job, mor e likely a mod to a working vehicle than a repair, and either Tara, Wesley or Aggie form "Over the Rainbow" (who I imagine is the older sister of Aura from "Welcome To the Hellmouth,") notice something mystical happening.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Mar 7 14:01:18 2017 205.141.67.16)
yay sarah's carl!

deadguy qod
Nothing particularly special for the 20th anniversary. Maybe rewatch OMWF and sing along this time!


Happy Non-Buffy Tuesday!



^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Tue Mar 7 13:35:45 2017 100.6.23.183)
Edited: Tue Mar 7 13:37:08 2017
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for sarah's carl

yay sarah's carl!

today's deadguy memorial buffy tuesday question is brought to you by:

celebrations 'r us - we'll do the work, you have the fun

are you doing anything special to celebrate the 20th anniversary of buffy the
vampire slayer?


Happy Non-Buffy Tuesday!



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Mar 7 12:56:58 2017 199.127.148.10)
lostinamerica I have watched it, just not a super-fan.

wolfguard Christopher Marlowe We also saw the outside of the first office just before it blew up. One of a conventional set of row buildings, mixed office/residential like in many such older but not poor neighborhoods.



^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Tue Mar 7 12:41:08 2017 73.58.129.225)
DaddyCatALSO, Agent Cooper--
Oh, you really should watch
Firefly, it's very good!



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Mar 7 12:22:01 2017 209.159.254.195)
Today is Tuesday, March 7th 2017 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


BuffyzAngel85
Comteacher
Doppler99
Larry Bagby III as Larry Blaisdell
Packman
SSDD

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to BuffyzAngel85, Comteacher, Doppler99, Larry Bagby, Packman, SSDD



Jayne: You wanna go, little man? Wash: Only if it's someplace with candlelight.
'Objects In Space'' '''


to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
Bawston says:
(Tue Mar 7 11:11:32 2017 174.199.8.54)
Thanks, ChristopherMarlowe!

Shan: I appreciate the link!



^ v
Shan says:
(Tue Mar 7 08:03:10 2017 114.75.120.80)
In case this hasn't been posted already.

It's Buffy Week at the AV Club

A few articles are up already.



^ v
Shan says:
(Tue Mar 7 06:38:40 2017 114.75.120.80)



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Mar 7 05:06:48 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguar LOL! I was just
reading an article about how
production of a tv show has been
moved from Vancouver to Hollywood.
It seems like almost everything is
filmed in Vancouver these days, so
this story seemed notable in that
way.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Mar 7 04:49:21 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

It seems many cities look alike to set designers. *g*

WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Mar 7 03:17:50 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfgaurd Too bad there aren't any other iconic Angel buildings to use instead.

Funnily enough, locations on Buffy are more memorable than they were in Angel.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Mar 7 02:12:42 2017 209.159.254.195)
Bawston Thanks for that! Feel free to 'clutter' the board anytime!



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Mar 7 02:04:45 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

There was a first season episode where Cordelia went out with a rich, young man
who proceeded to so bore her that she called the date short. When he dropped
her off they were attacked by one or more vampires(?). Rich guy ran, Doyle
appeared and fought them.

Unless Cordelia had the guy drop her off in front of her apartment building,
then it's likely she had hid drop her off outside their office. I may be able
to learn more.

Also, we have seen the top of the building. In Five by Five, Buffy and
Faith are on the roof when the 'wet' team tries to kill Faith.


WG



^ v
Bawston says:
(Tue Mar 7 01:53:59 2017 50.177.26.99)
I won't clutter the board with articles, but I really enjoyed this interview with Joss that was published on Yahoo today. Lots of interesting bits in it.

(So, links work on my desktop running Firefox but not my phone running Safari and Chrome...progress!)



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Mar 7 01:17:59 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard I miss the Hyperion. Did we ever see the outside of the original offices of Angel Investigations?



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Mar 7 00:58:23 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

Then I read right that AtS season four ended a couple weeks before BtVS'
series finale. AtS season four's finale was Home. This was the
episode where W&H made their offer to Angel and proceeded to treat each of
the fang gang to how great their life would be with W&H. All's eyes widen,
except for Angel. Nothing they offered him moved him. They even offered
information that would help Buffy in her fight against The First. Angel
declined. ~ Buffy's a big girl. She can look after herself.

Then Connor went amok. Angel accepted Wolfram & Hart's offer in exchange for
them giving Connor the new timeline with the new family and home. As I
recall, the last scene showed Angel staring through the window at Connor,
happy with his new family (and having no memory of Angel, et al).

After that, I assumed Angel moved from the Hyperion to W&H's building. When
I wrote Beyond the Horizon, first story in my take on 8th season,
Buffy headed straight to the Hyperion seeking refuge. Angel took them in,
but hid his association with W&H. Once Buffy found out ...


Anyway, today thought bringing the Hyperion down would be nice, but it'd
come across as similar to Sunnydale's demise. Just as well the hotel needs
to be around for the comics.


WG



^ v
Bawston says:
(Tue Mar 7 00:33:46 2017 50.177.26.99)
lostinamerica - Thank you! You make me
feel better about the links. I am using
Safari. Maybe that's the issue rather than
my usual technological struggles. :)



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Mar 6 23:50:58 2017 209.159.254.195)
Edited: Mon Mar 6 23:53:07 2017
wolfguard The end of season four was The Fang Gang taking over Wolfram and Hart, season five is the final season that had Angel battle against the dragon at the end. Season five ended on May 19th of 2004.



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Mar 6 23:12:15 2017 205.141.67.16)
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Cartoons
Question: Which cartoon character had a sidekick named Courageous Cat?
Answer: Minute Mouse

Trivia Mighty Mouse: notsoShyGirl
Trivia Pipsqueak: Agent Cooper



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Mar 6 22:02:52 2017 4.28.180.2)
Damn.

I'm rewriting my take on BtVS 8 and thought to destroy the Hyperion Hotel.
Unfortunately, some quick research showed Angel returned to it sometime
after the alley battle in Not Fade Away ....

... Maybe I can destroy it and later someone else rebuilds it? OTOH, that's
so Sunnydale High. *g*

In researching realized AtS season 4 ended a couple weeks before BtVS season
7. Angel season 4 premiered October 6, 2002 and the season finale was May 7,
2003. BtVS season 7 premiered September 24 and the series finale was May 20,
2003.

So Angel and the fang gang would have moved out of the hotel and into W&H
before Chosen. Buffy and company could have moved into the hotel for
a few days before seeing to its destruction. 'Cause that's what they do.


(Hope I didn't mix up AtS season 4 with season 5)


WG



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Mar 6 21:42:14 2017 4.28.180.2)
Agent Cooper,

One day, you might have a treat. *g*


DaddyCatALSO,

If Kaylee could mind-meld with a spacecraft, then she might be able to mind-
meld with a lawn mower - or not, given the differences in complexity between
the two. *g*


WG



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Mar 6 21:37:07 2017 199.127.148.10)
Agent Cooper I'm no big fan myself (and the movie was called Serenity,) just figured a multi-talented mechanic who can work on cars, motorcycles, bicycles, light planes, diesels, lawn mowers and other garden equipment, and can even do a little bit with boat engines & HVAC would be useful in a settlement that has to be self-sufficient. They are, after all, the last human settlement on the West Coast which is both of any size and has access to the sea. cc wolfguard Christopher Marlowe



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Mar 6 20:41:59 2017 199.168.151.175)
Daddycatalso: This is probably going to earn me the scorn and ridicule of the entire Bronze community, but I can't live a lie anymore. Today, I'm coming clean. I have to be who I am. Here goes....*deep breath*

I have never seen Firefly. Neither the movie nor the TV show.

*leaps behind the bar and ducks under counter*



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Mar 6 20:33:33 2017 199.168.151.175)
Chris Marlowe: Honestly, my first thought when I heard the words "Lavender Menace" was this.



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Mar 6 20:16:39 2017 199.127.148.10)
wolfguard The technology to build such ships doesn't exist in 2002, or now, so that doesn't help much:-).

Agent Cooper Firefly? She's a mechanic, he's a doctor?



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Mar 6 19:45:47 2017 205.141.67.16)
Agent Cooper It doesn't sound quite sinister either. *g* Back then the NOW president was Betty Frieden, who was worried that the stereotype of 'man hating' lesbians would hurt the feminist movement.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Mar 6 19:00:09 2017 71.56.125.67)
DaddyCatALSO,

Kaylee already has a supernatural power - she has a mindmeld with Serenity.

WG



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Mar 6 18:17:03 2017 199.168.151.175)
Daddycatalso: Ummm...yes! I mean, no! Definitely not. Well, maybe.

Honestly I'm not sure, but perhaps you should write in some fun superpowers for this Simon fellow. Perhaps he can read minds, but only for 5 minutes after he's eaten a certain type of burrito.

BTW, who's Kaylee? :-)



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Mar 6 17:41:16 2017 199.127.148.10)
wolfguard Agent Cooper Christopher Marlowe Just wondering; I'm planning to invent a 2002 version of Kaylee for my Ice Age Buffy setting, and oddly enough for that setting she's straight, just when civilization collapses she and Simon are legally separated. Should there be a supernatural element to her mechanical abilities?



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Mar 6 16:39:08 2017 199.168.151.175)
Chris Marlowe: The "Lavender Menace" ?? Heh. That sounds made up. :-)

Trivia Girl: Scaredy Mouse!



^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Mar 6 16:26:31 2017 96.87.54.73)
Edited: Mon Mar 6 16:27:28 2017
Trivia Girl
Courageous Cat had a rodent sidekick named Minute Mouse.

Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse
is a children's cartoon television show that was produced by Trans-Artists
Productions and syndicated by Tele Features Inc. in 1960. The characters were
created by Bob Kane as a parody of his earlier works, Batman and Robin.

In the animated series, the pair are anthropomorphic animal superheroes without
known secret identities (the green-eyed caped crimefighter and his squeaky-voiced
companion are usually addressed as simply "Courageous" and "Minute") who live in
the Cat Cave and, when summoned via the Cat Signal over their television set,
race to the scene of the crime in their sleekly feline red Cat Mobile which can
convert into both the extendable-winged Cat Plane and submersible Cat Boat and
thwart the criminal plots of various villains who threaten Empire City.

Though they fought many miscreants, the duo's recurring arch-enemy, who appeared
in nearly every episode, was known as Chauncey "Flat-Face" Frog.



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Mar 6 15:35:25 2017 205.141.67.16)
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Cartoons
Question: Which cartoon character had a sidekick named Courageous Cat?



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Mar 6 14:51:10 2017 205.141.67.16)
yay beldin!

lostinamerica It was good, I didn't know a lot of the history beyond Stonewall, like that the lavender menance was initially referring to lesbian women. The ratings were not so good, I think, which was a bummer.


Goodbye Blue Monday!



^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Mon Mar 6 14:15:31 2017 73.58.129.225)
ChristopherMarlowe--I heard
about the miniseries, and it
covers something I didn't know
about, but I rarely watch
miniseries :( How are the
ratings, do you know?


Bawston--Welcome back!
Don't worry about the links--I
can't do them anymore either after
changing browsers, I'll have to
look at it one day to see if I can
figure it out :)


Yay! Beldin!



^ v
Bawston says:
(Mon Mar 6 14:02:22 2017 174.199.0.144)
Hello ChristopherMarlowe!

It's so nice to see you too! How have you
been? I'm doing pretty well but it's hard to
believe how many years have passed and
how quickly it has gone. Even more
amazing is that I remembered my password
here when I can barely remember ones I
use all the time! The quirks of memory, I
guess.

It may be slower than it used to be but I'm
really glad you and others have kept the site
alive. It's comforting to still be able to come
here. I was looking through the old boards
and remembering so many of the posters.
It's been such a special place. But enough
of that, I'm getting mawkish. :)

I really hope things are going well with you!
Any special plans to celebrate the 20th
anniversary?

Yay beldin!



^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Mon Mar 6 13:55:02 2017 100.6.23.183)
Edited: Mon Mar 6 13:56:29 2017
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for beldin!

yay beldin!


Goodbye Blue Monday!



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Mar 6 12:45:15 2017 209.159.254.195)
Today is Monday, March 6th 2017 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


elreyn24
GrimReaper
Polgarita
turtle

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to elreyn24, GrimReaper, Polgarita, turtle!



It's called a blaster, Will, a word that tends to discourage experimentation. Now, if it were called the Orgasmater, I'd be the first to try your basic button press approach. Xander, 'This Year's Girl' '''

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Mar 6 12:37:56 2017 209.159.254.195)
Good morning beta!



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Mar 6 03:16:26 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

I do not think morals, the ones with biological roots, have changed. I
believe how they are expressed, "ethics", have changed as cultures have
changed.

If innate feelings of right and wrong evolved, then they are very likely
tuned to living in small, mobile, perhaps territorial living. This is how
people lived for all prehistory. Horticulture and agrarian societies
required major changes in behaviors because they usually involve sedentary
life and larger populations. All the major religions developed in pre-
industrial agrarian societies. Journalist Richard Critchfield spent a decade
or two living in agrarian societies around the world. From his experiences
he believed there was a universal village culture, but it was overlaid by
five or six ideological worldviews.1 These ideologies were
important, but the basic village morality was the same. He wrote that only
religious specialists cared much about the details, common folk lived with
the fundamentals, e.g. God exist, respect him. The Devil (demons) exist, be
careful of them.2

Jumping back in time, as the first states evolved those who would rise to
rule eventually became seen as intermediaries with god or even gods. In most
of history, religion and politics are intertwined.

1 As I remember, Catholicism, African Animist, Islam, Hindu,
Confucian, and Javanese. A few comments on this list. (1) Critchfield was
living in what was considered the less developed parts of the world and
Catholicism was the branch of Christianity encountered, (2) "African
Animist" is probably a short-hand reflecting ignorance, (3) East Asia blends
Confucianism with other beliefs, e.g. Daoism in China and Shintoism in Japan
(actually, since Japan wasn't a developing country, Critchfield didn't visit
there. If he had, I wonder how he would have viewed Japanese village life -
such as it might have been?.

3 A European traveling in North America, circa 1600's, spoke with
several indigenous people - I've know idea of the tribe(s). He wrote they
told him ~~~ God rained down goodness on all, regardless of behavior.
Consequently, men interacted less with God than with the Devil who was
always about messing with men's affairs.


WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Mar 6 02:49:57 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard I wonder how morals/ethics change over time. What was considered immoral/moral or ethical is now the opposite.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Mar 6 00:06:10 2017 209.159.254.195)
Hi Bawston! Things are pretty slow at the bronze these days, but I'm glad to see you!

How have you been?



^ v
Bawston says:
(Sun Mar 5 22:50:29 2017 50.177.26.99)
Maverick - Thank you for that link. The old
boards stirred up a lot of memories.



^ v
Maverick says:
(Sun Mar 5 22:05:43 2017 69.244.158.94)




^ v
Bawston says:
(Sun Mar 5 21:02:06 2017 50.177.26.99)
Hello all *waves*

It's been quite a while since I stopped by but I thought I'd pop
this here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/arts/te
levision/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-20-year-
anniversary.html

The first I've seen of what should be many
articles commemorating the 20th
anniversary.

Happy anniversary, Buffy.

Hope you all are well.

(I tried to do a hyperlink but for the life of me, I can't figure out what I did wrong. Please forgive the
inelegant link.)



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Mar 5 20:00:27 2017 209.159.254.195)
A beautiful day in the neigborhood and I am spending it inside!



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Mar 5 14:02:49 2017 209.159.254.195)
Today is Sunday, March 5th 2017 C.E.

We have THREE (3) Birthdays!


gana
David Fury - Writer for BtVS
krypticon

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to amorphia, biobabel, CHettler, elizabethdarcy, I_have_places_to_be, KINETIC, Nyx, sage, Shepster, Soul Rebel!



Dawn: You're not fleeing. You're... moving at a brisk pace. Buffy: Quaintly referred to in some cultures as the Big Scaredy Run Away.'Spiral''''

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Mar 5 04:01:58 2017 70.198.51.190)
Wolfguard

Even after studying a species so
long, the can still surprise.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Mar 5 03:48:16 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

Humans are apes and most all ape species are social.1 Human
bands' size vary directly with their environment's carrying capacity. As the
carrying capacity is reached or disagreements increase (and these two may be
related), bands tend to fission. Fissioning works so long as there's some
place for one of the bands to migrate to. If there's not, then the new band
will either have to chase away another band or run away itself and look
further afield.

A few months ago I saw a video of a chimpanzee "war party" raiding another
group that had ventured into its territory. Believe they killed one or two
of the other group. As I recall, Jane Goodall was shocked when she first
realized chimpanzees battled ...

Just googled to learn her specific reaction. See Gombe Chimpanzee War (1974-
1978). Goodall noticed the chimpanzees separating into a north and south
group.


1 I believe Orangutangs are not, but I'm not sure.


WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Mar 5 03:03:54 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard I can see advantage in banding in small groups in prehistoric times. Big enough that obtaining resources is a team effort, but not so large that it is unsustainable, given when you have larger groups, there is more likely to be disagreements.

Definitely forming social groups to begin with is seems a biological and societal imperative, both for safety and in exploiting resources.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Mar 5 01:10:19 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

To survive as a group, social animals have to cooperate. Nevertheless,
individuals in a group might benefit by cheating. If such cheating lead to
reproductive success, then overtime more of these sorts would be represented
in the social group. But this would lessen the advantages of social living.
Consequently behaviors have evolved to counter and punish cheating and
related behaviors.

When people discuss biological evolution there's a tendency to look at
traits in isolation - either a trait helps or hinders reproductive success.
Reality is many if not most traits can both help or harm depending on time,
place, and context. There appears an ongoing conflict in social animals
between cooperating and cheating. Some scientists believe one reason the
human brain evolved to its current complexity comes from generations of
individuals trying to deceive and detect deception in each other (If I know
that she knows that he knows that I known that ...).

So morality - what we feel about right and wrong behaviors - is rooted in
group living, small group living.1 Now add humans' ability
for imagination, metaphor, and abstract thought - culture - and different
religions evolve to explain and frame these moral feelings.

Many anthropologists would argue culture long ago surpassed biological
evolution in shaping human behavior. One can have long discussions or
debates on it if one is familiar with the material. It's like B/A'ers vs.
Spuffies.

1 One conclusion from studying small groups over prehistory and
history is that they love each other, but usually hate their "neighbors". We
define ourselves by those who are outside our group. One of the great
successes of human deception and imagination is creating multi-million
member groups, states and nations, where individuals accept each other, more
or less, as belonging to the same uber-band or tribe.


WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Mar 5 00:20:21 2017 70.198.51.190)
Wolfguard

I then windows how natural morals
developed? Was it like evolution
when certain traits allowed people
to survive?



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Mar 4 23:03:13 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

My research tended to say two things. One was that morals are how a person
feels about what's right and wrong, while ethics are how those feelings are
applied. Second, there's not always a clear distinction between the two.

For instance, organizations will often create policies stating their ethical
guidelines. Professional organizations will have a ethics policy. People can
takes courses in "Business Ethics", but usually not in 'Business Morals'.

I know one organization that says it will do anything for its clients that is
not amoral, unethical, illegal, or exposes the company to some liability.

Regardless of religion, people have feelings about what they consider to be
right or wrong. There are behaviors that just draw or repel people without
there needing to be a book of rules. These feelings express natural morals.


WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Mar 4 22:50:34 2017 209.159.254.195)
Morals:

a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.

Ethics:

moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity.

So morals are a subset of ethics.
But you can have bad morals but good ethics? or good morals but bad ethics?



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Mar 4 20:02:15 2017 70.198.48.142)
Good afternoon everyone!



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sat Mar 4 15:05:15 2017 209.159.254.195)
Today is Satuday, March 4th 2017 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!


chi
Happy
jayde
KT
Shannah
Siobhan

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to chi, Happy, jayde, KT, Shannah, Siobhan!



Gwen: Demon, OK? The whole ninecloven feet and horns and teeth. He wasn't wearing lam though. Lorne: Yeah, the evil ones can't pull it off. It gets camp.
'Long Day's Journey''''


to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Mar 4 14:50:39 2017 209.159.254.195)
Good morning beta!



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Mar 4 05:52:19 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard I'll post some thoughts tomorrow on both and see where that takes us!



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Mar 4 04:45:20 2017 70.198.45.244)
Wolfguard

Let's start. What are ethics and
how are the different from morals?



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Mar 4 02:33:54 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

Sure.

WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Mar 4 00:23:59 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard Up for a
conversation about ethics sometime?



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Mar 3 23:05:27 2017 205.141.67.16)
Agent Cooper Thanks! I'll give Crackle a try, but I won't snap or pop. *g*

I'm heading off work soon and planning a joining a couple of friends mine for movie and dinner. It should be quite fun1



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Mar 3 19:28:39 2017 199.168.151.175)
Chris Marlowe: OMG, that made me laugh out loud at my desk.
:-)

Snatch is a new TV series about (apparently) a group of small time London crooks. Rupert Grint is in it, so that made me curious and when I looked it up the press about it seems interesting.

Crackle is an online video service. I haven't used it much, but I know folks who have. Basically it's like Netflix, except that you can watch shows for free, with the catch being there are 2-3 longish commercials during the showing.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Mar 3 18:53:32 2017 205.141.67.16)
Agent Cooper I have to askwhat is Snatch and what is Crackle? Sounds like a video game team!



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Mar 3 17:17:38 2017 199.168.151.175)
I think I want to check out that "Snatch" series on Crackle. Looks like it could be good.



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Mar 3 14:17:52 2017 209.159.254.195)
Today is Friday, March 3rd 2017 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!


a cowboy
Charmaine
fenric
silla
Trinity aka SlayerQueen
Vicki Jermanowski

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to a cowboy, Charmaine, fenric, silla, Trinity aka SlayerQueen, Vicki Jermanowski!



Played with Kaylee. Sun came out, and I walked on my feet and heard with my ears. I ate the bits, the bits stayed down, and I work. I function like I'm a girl. I hate it because I know it'll go away. The sun goes dark and chaos has come again. Bits. Fluids. What am I?!
River, 'War Stories'''


to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Mar 3 14:04:27 2017 209.159.254.195)
yay greengirl!


Happy Thank Joss It's Friday!

lostinamerica How has it been going with you? I've been wathing that 'when we rise' miniseries.



^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Fri Mar 3 13:06:33 2017 73.58.129.225)
Yay! greengirl!



^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Fri Mar 3 12:03:49 2017 100.6.23.183)
Edited: Fri Mar 3 12:05:09 2017
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for greengirl!

yay greengirl!


Happy Thank Joss It's Friday!



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Mar 3 08:22:50 2017 71.56.125.67)
Late Night Drive-By

Parking

German salaries


WG



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Mar 3 04:53:31 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

As I understand it, German trade unions sit on corporate boards and for the
last 25-odd years have worked with corporate management to keep wages down so
to keep German exports competitive. More later.

WG



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Mar 3 04:30:53 2017 4.28.180.2)
Edited: Fri Mar 3 04:31:23 2017
Christopher Marlowe,

The excerpt (?) you posted reflects thought common to those who think Europeans
do it right. OTOH, Europe is not doing so well right now. OTOOH, the political
economies of Europe are not of one type. What's the source of your excerpt?

WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Mar 3 03:34:47 2017 209.159.254.195)
.....To pay for all this, these countries also impose higher tax rates on their corporations and wealthy individuals than does the United States. And their health, safety, environmental and labor regulations are stricter.
Not incidentally, they have stronger unions.

So why is so much of Boeings Dreamliner coming from these high-wage, high-tax, high-cost places?
Because the parts made by workers in these countries are better, last longer and are more reliable than parts made anywhere else.
Theres a lesson here.

The way to make the American workforce more competitive isnt to put economic walls around America. Its to invest more and invest better in the education and skills of Americans, in on-the-job training, in a health care system that reaches more of us and makes sure we stay healthy. And to give workers a say in their companies through strong unions.

In other words, we get a first-class workforce by investing in the productive capacities of Americans and rewarding them with high wages.

Its the exact opposite of what Trump is proposing.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Mar 3 02:53:42 2017 209.159.254.195)
Anyone around?



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Fri Mar 3 01:56:55 2017 209.159.254.195)
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Movies
Question: Who played Lenny in Lenny?
Answer: Dustin Hoffman



Trivia Lennys: NotsoLennyGirl
Trivia Squiggy: Agent Squiggy



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Mar 3 00:46:51 2017 209.159.254.195)
Agency Cooper You caught me. I cannot deny it any longer.

I AM SQUIGGY!



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Mar 2 23:08:02 2017 205.141.67.16)
Quiet Day!

Agent Cooper The company had everyone gather and the front of the building to do a group photo. We were entertained little bit a drone that flew above and around us. I don't know if it took any footage, though.



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Mar 2 18:32:17 2017 199.168.151.175)
The real question here is, who played Squiggy?



^ v
Maverick says:
(Thu Mar 2 18:29:46 2017 69.244.158.94)
Trivia Girl: Bruce Squiggy.


Christopher Marlowe: I see you equating the plastic surgery available offshore at some vacation spot with the plastic surgery available at an actual hospital in the U.S. by a Board Certified surgeon. You might NEVER actually know what expertise and facilities are available at one of those "bargain" places. There are often horror stories. Your comment: "When you can get the same kind or better procedure done overseas at a fraction of the cost to have it done in the US, even including travel costs, something is fatally flawed in the system and government isn't the 'problem'". When a "bargain" is too good to be true, it often really is not true. The comparison would be to have an abortion, full price, in a hospital or, cheaper, from some back alley "doctor."


Maverick


Theme from "Midnight Cowboy"




^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Mar 2 17:35:13 2017 96.87.54.73)
Trivia Girl
Dustin Hoffman



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Mar 2 16:29:20 2017 199.168.151.175)
Trivia Girl: Well, that would be Lenny. Obviously!

Amiright??



^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Mar 2 16:01:23 2017 96.87.54.73)
Peeks through the door. "Trivia?"



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Mar 2 16:00:20 2017 205.141.67.16)
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Movies
Question: Who played Lenny in Lenny?



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Mar 2 14:07:58 2017 209.159.254.195)
Today is Thursday, March 2nd 2017 C.E.

We have FIVE (5) Birthdays!


Angelique
Buffinator
gordy
mandarb
The Mayoress

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Angelique, Buffinator, gordy, mandarb, The Mayoress!


Jayne, your mouth is talking. You might wanna look to that.Mal, 'Serenity'

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Mar 2 13:56:13 2017 209.159.254.195)
yay zeus!



Happy CD Thursday!



^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Thu Mar 2 13:06:38 2017 100.6.23.183)
Edited: Thu Mar 2 13:07:15 2017
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for zeus!

yay zeus!



Happy CD Thursday!



^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Thu Mar 2 12:47:53 2017 73.58.129.225)
Belated Yay! Ojagwers!



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Mar 2 02:38:00 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard With regards to insurance for a particular body part or item, it seems to be those things are sometimes added to an existing body part. I carry renter's insurance, I could ask that coverage be added to cover the costs of a hearing aid should they get lost or something. That is not something that is particularly common. But it would cost extra.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Mar 2 02:10:51 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

- "The whole idea of insurance is to spread the risk..."

But does a given market involve spreading the risk across the number of
customers or across the number of insurers? For instance, what if the thing
being insured was one person or one item or one event, e.g. a singer's voice
or the Mona Lisa, or a space launch? You can't necessarily spread the risk
across all singers or pieces of art or other space launches. What can happen
with these sorts of risk is that a larger number of insurers can be brought
together to cover the thing in question. The key is that there are enough
insurers that if there is a loss, no one insurer's stake will bankrupt them.
Of course, each insurer has to believe the perceived return is worth the
possible loss and this leads to the premium.

A population of people who need or want health insurance may not fit the
above model, but we need to be aware of the above model when thinking on
health insurance.

- Foreign health services are not necessarily good or better than US health
services. One would have to look at the specifics of the case.

- The lower cost of a drug in country A relative to country B may reflect
price-gorging in B, but it might also reflect higher overall cost in B or
subsidies in A. Again, one has to look at specific case.

- Government can certainly be a cause of health service costs. All that's
needed is a law or regulation that increases the cost to the producer of
providing the affected health product.

- If a government puts a price ceiling on a health product, then producers
will probably not provide the product if it doesn't make a
profit1 at that price point. Conversely, if a government sets a
price floor, i.e. a price below which a product cannot drop, then there may
a surplus of the product sitting around. This costs folks because the
resources used to produce the surplus are not available for other uses.

- Markets are efficient when they are competitive, but few markets are
competitive because the requisite factors creating competition rarely come
together (enough buyers and sellers that no one can influence the price,
easy entry and exit into the market, perfect information had by all)

- If there are few makers/sellers relative to buyers, then they maybe able
to influence the price. If there is only one maker or seller, then there's a
monopoly and monopolies have a lot of power to set prices. If a company
holds the sole patent to a drug, then they have the potential to charge a
high price for it (potential, because the drug may not command a high
demand). Some people find this intolerable. OTOH, creating a drug is
expensive and intellectual property rights are a legal tool for providing an
incentive for people to take a high risk. If successful, they get monopoly
rights - and the potential revenue - for a limited time. As in much of life
there is a trade-off to be calculated.


1 Crudely put, profit is what's left after everything else used
to run the business and create products is paid for. It's the money left
over that can be invested in new things and/or distributed to the owners for
risking their money in the business.


WG



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Mar 2 01:06:16 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

Your statements are too broad for me to agree or disagree with right now. Have
to ponder a bit. *g*

WG



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Mar 2 01:04:56 2017 209.159.254.195)
Sunnydales Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: What is Freds full name?
Answer: Winifred Burkle

Triva Hep Cat: Shygirl!
Trivia Agent Not Quite the Trivia Master Cooper



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Mar 2 00:52:03 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard There is a reason why 'medical vacations' are popular. When you can get the same kind or better procedure done overseas at a fraction of the cost to have it done in the US, even including travel costs, something is fatally flawed in the system and government isn't the 'problem'

The whole idea of insurance is to spread the risk. Having only sick people on insurance is not the point of insurance.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Mar 2 00:14:00 2017 4.28.180.2)
Comma,

A month or so ago, I noted the 20th anniversary was approaching. :)

Having second thoughts about the smiley emoticon. *g*


WG



^ v
Maverick says:
(Wed Mar 1 23:50:29 2017 69.244.158.94)
Christopher Marlowe: Oh, I almost forgot, Affirmative Action? I understand what you think you like about Affirmative Action but you don't really understand the history of it AND it really SHOULD have ended by now, to stop such manipulations of the workforce. It's relatively mild now, but when Affirmative Action started back methinks in the Nixon Administration, I was a controller for a construction company. We had Federal Contracts so had to comply with both Affirmative Action quotas AND the Davis/Bacon Act (which called for people to be paid at the high level of other people working in the industry, which turned out mostly to be what a Union person would get paid.) We were a Union Contractor, and the Union had very few actual BLACK workers available, so we had to recruit in the newspaper for black workers (who immediately, when we hired them, got signed up in the Union as apprentices, so we also had to pay the Union all the fringe benefits the union was entitled to [by our Union contract] even though the people hired were totally unskilled and worthless and never received any of the Union benefits [the Union just kept them.]) Many of these hirees were used to the Welfare lifestyle which meant getting paid for doing nothing.) In other words we had to pay Premium wages to people who couldn't even show up on time and they couldn't actually perform any work [except for, in some cases, maybe the "Laborers".], just so we could swear on Affirmative Action Reports that our workforce included the "proper" quotas. Most of these workers were laid off at the end of jobs (we tried to keep some who were exceptional but if we ran out of work we had to let them go) so they did not stay in the Union. Work days were a near-impossible situation. We had Pipefitters and Millwrights who are skilled workers but we had to hire do-nothing black people to carry on our payroll, and our Superintendent was kept busy keeping the unskilled blacks from getting hurt on the job and keep them from fighting and stealing stuff. The thing IS that all these fine-sounding rules were passed but the responsibility to conform with these rules was forced on the EMPLOYER (who BTW also had to make a profit to stay in business.) When we bid a job in those days it was a real chaotic situation and a miracle to "get" a job as the low bidder. It took years and years of this confusion (like maybe 20) before the Unions were finally forced (to do anything!) to hire and train more black people and women. Are things better today? Maybe somewhat. But this same game has carried over to Hispanics and Middle Easterners who now have the job preferences and must be carried on the payrolls in larger numbers. People of this persuasion are still being hired to meet various quotas with various results. Think about this! Illegals, if they can fake the right papers, and if they are willing to work (rather than taking Obama's welfare for being a Democratic voter) can actually have a Preference in hiring (even over a black worker.) Yes, Affirmative Action "sure is complicated."


Leftists say there are no examples of "men" exploiting transgender bathroom situations.


Maverick


Go All The Way




^ v
Comma says:
(Wed Mar 1 22:51:26 2017 75.143.154.113)
Has anyone mention the fact that BtVS will have started, on TV, twenty years ago March 10th?

Comma



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Mar 1 21:47:45 2017 199.168.151.175)
Daddycatalso: But that's the thing: Kolchak wasn't supposed to be smart. He's written as just an average joe who is a reporter burning shoe leather trying to get a scoop. He's more persistent than smart and more lucky than capable. He usually stumbles into the weird stuff he finds out, and escapes by the seat of his pants.

I think that's what makes him such a cool character.



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Mar 1 21:36:51 2017 199.127.148.10)
Christopher Marlowe Maverick wolfguard Before Obamacare became a thing, I had an ordinary health plan with the usual coverages, including a rather reasonable access price to prescription drugs.
Afetr Obamacare was passed, but before it kicked in, we switched to a minimized-for-the-insurer-cost-plan-ebfore-O'care-kicks-in with a $100.00 maximum per month for prescriptions & $10,000.00 max per year on medical bills. Around then I had to put my daughter on the plan.
Then, 3 years or so back, we got the new set-up. I emailed "Kit-kat" about whether she needed it again. As she was doing with all emails by then, no response, so I didn't sign her up and went for Silver plan. Which, given the new way 'scrips are covered, made brand-name and even some generics no longer available to me. Of course, in 2014 & in 2016 I was had the great good fortune to undergo major surgery in January, so I hit my out-of-pocket limit and got meds and follow-up appointments paid in full. (NEedless to say, I had to stiff the hospitals and practices involved in the surgeries themselves.)
This year, w e changed providers and the company is kicking in its share in a different manner. So, this year I can afford Gold (the new plan only has 3 levels) and can also afford to kick in on an HSA, although I'm only depositing $25/pay.

Agent Cooper Kolchak, as a character, never seemed all that bright to me. Watching the reruns on METV Sunday nights, but the cancellation occurred before all t eh schedule scripts and been filmed, and the 3 unproduced episodes, more specifically the season finale of the 3 executioners, looked the most interesting in the Wikipedia writeup.



^ v
Maverick says:
(Wed Mar 1 20:13:03 2017 69.244.158.94)
Edited: Wed Mar 1 21:58:01 2017
Trivia Girl: Freddy the Freeloader.


Christopher Marlowe: Yes, the GOP has wanted to repeal Obamacare and, I believe, could have gone back to what existed before, but in the meantime the Insurance Industry has kind of disassembled their old policies, so at this point there's no going back and restarting the forward movement (to include a way to handle things like pre-existing conditions, etc.) I had seen a report in 2016 wherein Thune -here it is- predicted Obamacare was scheduled for 30% premium increases in 2017. I don't know how this translates into employer-employee group insurance. The problem with fiddling with the Minimum Wage is that it causes fast-food places to go out of business (they'd have to raise prices so they price themselves out of the market) OR to automate to cut employment. Businesses subject to the minimum wage used to hire from the ranks of students in school or those seeking the discipline of a first job but, since Obama, college grads have had to take jobs as fast-food workers and are largely forced to try to raise a family on these wages.


Proof Journalists Know Nothing: Here is a news report (it's worth it just to hear Angela Merkle speaking German) entitled "Islam Set to Overtake Christianity As the Most Popular Religion" Seriously?? "Popular"??? Popular? Don't they realize that once you become a Muslim, there's no leaving. Those who try to leave Islam are considered "Apostates" and are eligible to be killed by any "good" Muslim. It's like the Roach Motel--you go in but you can't come out. This is possibly another example of what the Muslims call "honor killings."


In case you missed President Trump's speech last night here's a transcript.


Maverick


Get Right Back Where We Started From This was the Theme Song from the hockey movie "Slapshot".




^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Mar 1 19:55:36 2017 71.56.125.67)
Drive-By

Christopher Marlowe,

Some pass-along's on health care...

1) I have a close friend whose work involves managing the interface between a major hospital and the various payers (insurance companies and governments). Before Obama was a blip on the political radar, this person told me the system would one day default to single-payer. What's logical at one scale becomes dysfunctional on larger scales.

2) An HR executive told me the difference in coding of the same health service can mean the difference between $50 and $5,000 in the bill.

3) A foreign health sales rep (RN/MBA) told me the same medicine that cost $4,000 a month in the US could be had for $70 a month in Ireland

4) I asked the CEO of a health service company if he or his company had read all 2,000 odd pages of the ACA. He replied, ~ No. Just the six pages that applied to us ~.

5) A doctor who authored a book on the health system and the ACA got the idea to do so after a friend, who is a journalist, asked if she could buy him lunch at which he would explain the health care system to her. He replied, ~ I'll take more than a lunch.


As I understand it, the Obama administration began with two major goals for health care: 1) expand coverage, 2) control cost. As they developed the programs and legislation they veered to mostly expanding coverage.1

The problem facing Republicans is many items in the ACA are well-liked: coverage of pre-existing conditions, portability between jobs, coverage of kids till 26 by parents' policies, etc.

What is not liked is the ACA required people to buy health insurance or pay a penalty for not doing so.2 However, if coverage is not mandatory, then its thought most young and/or people who feel healthy will not buy insurance. This leaves a pool of customers who probably will pay less in than they take out. Health insurance companies find that a iffy business model.

The ACA may be more like a fabric than a buffet. (how's that for mixing metaphors? *g*)


1 OTOH, the person I mentioned in item 1 says the folks overseeing Medicare/Medicaid continually visit the hospital to dispute charges and claw back monies.

2 People also say their premiums are going up.


WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Mar 1 18:43:18 2017 205.141.67.16)
Agent Cooper I think the new Buffy comic do posit that the public believes vampires are real, I think..Still, your point stands.



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Mar 1 18:07:22 2017 199.168.151.175)
Deadguy Memorial Question: There was this old 70s TV show called "Kolchak, the Night Stalker" about this reporter who keeps running into supernatural phenomena. In one ep he traces a murder investigation to a real life vampire, for instance. He tries to get the stories out, but his evidence always ends up being destroyed somehow, and even when it doesn't of course nobody believes him or takes him seriously.

It's actually a pretty good show.

Anyway, I think that's what would happen to anybody investigating Sunnydale. And of course there would be efforts from all sides to cover things up. The vampires certainly don't want to be exposed so they'd quickly dispose of any nosy reporters and the authorities, like the mayor and the feds at the initiative probably don't want this info out either. So you'd get the "vampires don't exist" and "Gangs on PCP" treatment from them.

I look at the way the Rice vamps handled it as well. First rule is you don't talk about fight club. Second rule is YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB. Any attempt at exposing the vampire world to mortals will bring a swift and painful end at the hands of the most powerful and ancient vamps.

With one notable exception, Lestat de Lioncourt, who starts a world famous rock band and openly and brazenly tries to flaunt his vampirism and expose the world of immortals to the entire planet, writing songs about the intimate world of the vampires and singing them in every city.

....Aaannnddd NOBODY in the mortal world took him seriously, to his chagrin. The mortal world took the whole enterprise as a flashy goth act, and believed Lestat's claim to be an actual vampire as a schtick gimmick for his band act. Which is partly why the other vamps didn't kill him. (It helps that few of them were powerful enough to try, but that's beside the point.)

Anyway, MY point is I think that's what would happen if say a reporter got hold of the hold Slayer thing and found out it was real. You'd have trouble reporting it and nobody would believe you anyway. It's like the Wizarding World in Harry Potter relies on muggles to dismiss any magic they may accidentally witness. Deep down, they WANT to disbelieve. People are grounded in the mundane work-a-day world and it would be hard to convince them of things like Vampires without sustained, concrete proof.



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Mar 1 17:44:28 2017 199.168.151.175)
Trivia Girl: Frederick Joseph Flintstone, of course!



^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Mar 1 15:44:50 2017 96.87.54.73)
Trivia Girl
Winifred "Fred" Burkle



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Mar 1 15:36:04 2017 205.141.67.16)
Sunnydales Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: What is Freds full name?



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Mar 1 14:58:51 2017 199.168.151.175)
Bruce Campbell could solve the healthcare problem, toot sweet!

And if there were a zombie uprising, well, let's just say that would not be a problem with Bruce in charge.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Mar 1 14:24:11 2017 209.159.254.195)
yay ojagwers!


deadguy qod

Demons and vampires are pretty obvious to the scoobies, If a serious journalist would see that as well, but I doubt they would be able to convince the public, no matter how credible they were.


Happy non-Angel Wednesday!



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YayOfTheDay says:
(Wed Mar 1 13:48:59 2017 100.6.23.183)
Edited: Wed Mar 1 13:50:44 2017
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for ojagwers!

yay ojagwers!

today's deadguy memorial angel wednesday question is brought to you by:

the sunnydale times - no news v. faux news

how would the scooby gang handle a serious journalistic investigation?


Happy non-Angel Wednesday!



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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Mar 1 13:46:07 2017 209.159.254.195)
Today is Wednesday, March 1st 2017 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!


Deadboy
Delf
Dream Diva
Jeff_the_Buffy_Fan
Krystal
Phoenix1081
piasalady
sami

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Deadboy, Delf, Dream Diva, Jeff The Buffy Fan, Krystal, Phoenix1081, piasalady, sami!



Mal: How come you didn't turn on me, Jayne? Jayne: Money wasn't good enough. Mal: What happens when it is? Jayne: Well... that'll be an interesting day. 'Serenity''''

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Mar 1 03:30:34 2017 209.159.254.195)
Maverick Yes, I pay in for my health/dental insurance, but I don't have to pay in as much because I'm single with no kids.

Purchased the 'bronze' standard for health and 'silver' for dental.

The Bronze level is the only one where you are allowed a Health Savings Account.

We had a range of different health care providers to choose from, a lot more than we had before. I'm not sure I particularly like that because trying to figure out what would be best was difficult, even with the multitude of 'guides' to help me. Being given a lot of choice is no guarantee you'll be able to make a smart one.

I am not certain what we'll get for insurance next year, and I don't particularly like that. Thanks GOP for railing against Obamacare for years, but only NOW are you scrambling for an alternative.

I heard $15 an hour in some state, Oregon or Washington, maybe?



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Maverick says:
(Wed Mar 1 01:50:00 2017 69.244.158.94)
Christopher Marlowe: Don't you personally pay even a token amount towards your health care (while your employer pays the bulk of it)? Those things you believe in? How about Cleaning Up After Yourself?


Does this surprise anyone? Perhaps fast-food workers should ask for a $20 an hour Minimum Wage?


Maverick


You've Got It All




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wolfguard says:
(Wed Mar 1 00:59:56 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

Yesterday, President Trump is quoted as saying, "Nobody knew health care could
be so complicated."

In my experience many very smart people and very successful people assume there
isn't any problem they can't sort out. They really believe it. Now and then,
they are surprised. Actually, I believe there are many cases where successful
people get themselves into trouble because of the self-confidence they have
developed from expertise in one field doesn't translate so well into another
field.


WG



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Mar 1 00:26:27 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard That doesn't surprise me. I'm not certain what is all entailed as the replacement for Obamacare, I've seen different accounts on different websites. Not sure Trump himself knows, we'll see what he says tonight.

I get my coverage through my employer and I really have no idea what will happen next year with regards to insurance.



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Feb 28 23:59:28 2017 209.159.254.195)
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: Who were the geek trio?
Answer: Andrew, Warren and Jonathan

Trivia Nerd: notsoshygirl
Trivia Dunce: agent Cooper



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wolfguard says:
(Tue Feb 28 23:52:54 2017 4.28.180.2)
A couple nights ago on BBC, a scientist who has been deeply involved in
engineering and innovating listed the four factors he found contributed to
innovation...

1) radical ideas

2) new instruments, e.g. microscopes, telescopes, etc.

3) the collision of different disciplines1

4) "Freud" (By this he meant removing people from the center of focus, e.g.
when Copernicus argued the earth was not the center of the solar system)


1 The Reese's Cup effect



WG



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wolfguard says:
(Tue Feb 28 22:53:52 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

Earlier today I spoke with a young man who is probably making a couple dollars
more an hour than minimum wage. He just learned he's not getting a tax refund,
because he didn't have health insurance last year and the refund went towards
the penalty.

WG



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Feb 28 21:59:34 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard The tenet of 'taxing the rich'. It's more complicated than that. A friend of mine isn't necessarily wealthy, but he tells me about all the taxes and different kinds of taxes he pays. he has to pay and to me it sounds like quite a lot,



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Feb 28 21:42:44 2017 199.127.148.10)
Agent Cooper Well, I can say with confidence that R. Budd Dwyer *definitely* died on TV, as Wikipedia will bear out.
As for bringing Jenny back, well, Robia left the business and even before that she had made it clear she wouldn't work with Joss again, but Roxana Zal doesn't have many credits since 2003 so it could be done.
I don't know how common it is in Buffic in general for Jenny to be still/again alive.
I had no plans to bring he r back in my what are still technically futurefics since the first stories I wrote in The Children Of the 'Dale" were set in 2026. But then, on the one hand, Joss had already require d me to bring back most of my cast anyway so I began doing t he prequels. When ?I did the story "...But Wishing Makes It So..." I found Jenny fitting in so well with the S-5/6 cast that I decided to go for it, which led directly to a better scenario for bringing Anya back and getting her back to Xander.
And, Jenny's presence also led to the Mephistopheles not-an-Arc-just first-and-last-chapters which moved things from "canon with a few resurrections" to my actual "Childrenverse.
She does not come abck in my "World Beyond the Wall" stories, where the resurrections a re the result of people deciding to return from beyond during a cosmic axis shift, or in my Ice Age Buffy, which branches off at the amusement park where Warren beats Buffy down and the Trio escape, eliding to no resurrections needed to g et t he cast I wanted.



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wolfguard says:
(Tue Feb 28 21:31:11 2017 4.28.180.2)
Christopher Marlowe,

I've voted for more Republicans than Democrats, but my position of "climate
change" is based on my understanding of climatology and reading of the
evidence. Based on that, the world is warming and that warming is primarily
caused by the burning of fossil fuels by people.

What's changed about your thinking on taxes?


WG



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Feb 28 20:45:29 2017 209.159.254.195)
wolfguard I'm not sure what core beliefs, I have, actually. I know I believe in things like affirmative action and climate change. I may have changed some core beliefs about taxes.


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