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Maverick says:
(Fri Oct 26 04:41:44 2018
Comma: What's the difference between a Cat and a Comma? A Cat has claws at the end of its paws and a comma causes a pause at the end of a clause.

Wolfguard: A true religion is one based on recorded fact and observation and one that holds up under logical reasoning, all the while explaining our existence and circumstances. It documents and is dependent upon the presence of a beneficent Supreme Being and guides us in our relationship to Him. Okay, your turn.


Send Her My Love

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Oct 26 01:31:48 2018
Such a long day at work and it will be super long Friday and Saturday.

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wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 25 22:55:27 2018

Let's begin with you defining ...




... then we can move on to Marxism.


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Comma says:
(Thu Oct 25 22:44:30 2018
For those off all who do not work with agencies within the US Government, no one, and I mean 'NO ONE', whom is protected by the Secret Service, ever receives any mail, from the Post Office, at their home address. No matter what address is on the mail, all mail is sent to the nearest Secret Service field office. How the mail is handle after that, and how it is delivered after clearance to the addresses, I do not know.


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Maverick says:
(Thu Oct 25 22:19:09 2018
Fake Shemp Trivia: "Polka Dots and Moonbeams"

Wolfguard: Do I have to quote George Santayana to you? You're a student of history, I thought. Anyway, it may just be a generational thing. Have you ever felt threatened? I certainly have. I was drafted and put on a uniform in 1967 through 1969. It was my honor and duty to serve. I thought I was going to Vietnam but lucked out and ended up in Germany. It was Communism then (North Vietnam and Russia), and it's still Marxism (Marxism-light, so far, with the Democratic party in the U.S., but they still want to disarm us and further Marxism.) Muslims? Study the history. I don't like to be tricked into surrendering; that's their clever little game. It's not a true religion, and they do not deserve deference in order to promote their political aims. Also, when they refuse to assimilate, they are a political obstacle and we need to deny them our opportunities.


Forever and For Always

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wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 25 18:34:23 2018
Fake Shemp Trivia Stand In Person

I'll Never Smile Again

Covered by Angel at the Caritas during his "Final Eternal Tour",


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notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Oct 25 14:51:34 2018
Fake Shemp Trivia Stand In

His first Top 10 hit was

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Fake Shemp Trivia Stand In Person says:
(Thu Oct 25 12:55:16 2018
Fake Shemp Trivia Question: What was Frank Sinatra's first hit song?

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Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Oct 25 12:44:27 2018
no trivia today, I'm late for work!!

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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Oct 25 12:34:27 2018
Today Thursday, October 26th C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!

Mr. Whyt
the red hood

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Kaboo, Mr. Whyt, Moloch2002, the red hood!

Angel: Yeah, I never told anyone about this, but I-I liked your poems. Spike: You like Barry Manilow. 'Hell Bound''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Oct 25 12:28:06 2018
yay achilles!

Happy CD Thursday!

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YayOfTheDay says:
(Thu Oct 25 11:54:22 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for achilles!

yay achilles!

Happy CD Thursday!

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wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 25 08:52:09 2018
Late Night Drive-By

One historical potential, not chosen, but who went on for a longer performance



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Oct 25 03:36:12 2018
wolfguard Yeah, if you
really understand the material in
that way, it should help a great
deal when it comes time for

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wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 25 03:16:54 2018
Christopher Marlowe,

When we are exposed to a subject and it seems easy or understandable, then we
often walk away believing we understood it. Trying to teach that subject is a
great way of discovering the truth of the matter. *g*


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Oct 25 02:46:52 2018
wolfguard That seems to be
the gist of the advice, having a
plan to study and then follow a
kind of format when studying.

One suggestion is to imagine
teaching the material well enough
so someone else can understand.

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wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 25 01:50:55 2018
Edited: Thu Oct 25 01:51:42 2018
Christopher Marlowe,

I'd also not heard of it, so googled it. Many results. Wonder if it's worth
all the notice?

Learning "is" acquired knowledge and behaviors. How knowledge and behaviors
are acquired depend on the specifics of the knowledge and behaviors. *g*

I do know that academic knowledge is usually best learned in small chunks
involving restating or reorganizing the material. Test have more use in
establishing learning than in evaluating learning. And use it or lose it. *g*


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Oct 25 01:02:04 2018
wolfguard my good on teaching yourself to learn includes something called 'Bloom's Taxonomy', something I hadn't heard of before. Probably because it is in the educational field.

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Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Oct 25 00:34:01 2018
sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who played the character of Nina Ash?
Answer: Jenny Mollen

Trivia Casting directors: NotsoShyGirl
Trivia Grips: Agent Cooper

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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Oct 24 20:43:56 2018
wolfguard That's a very good analysis of the realities of Slayers who have daughters. But most of the ScCoobies weren't Buffy or Faith. I figure the chances of members of the group in general birthing or impregnating a Potnetial is the same as anyone else worldwide. (Of course, I had Willow and Tara be the ones to have a Slayer in the biological family in my main ficverse, only one even though they have three daughters. Although now I think on it Autumn is the only one Tara bore, Willow built Autumn and Michaela, t.)hat might lead me soemwhere

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wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 24 18:47:06 2018


I didn't ponder the question. It was in the spirit of what might have
happened if someone said, let's do a quick Q&A. *g* Having said that, I've
gone back and done the introspection thing on why that was my quick response
rather than, 'Absolutely'.

Here's what probably shaped the answer ...

1) Until Chosen the power was demonic power.

2) The power's source was external to the slayer-to-be.

3) After a slayer died in some magical fashion the power arose in one of
many potentials making her the next slayer.

(I have my theory as to how the magick works to select that potential, but
it's probably not relevant to this DGMQ.)

None of this involves genetics, so it cannot be inherited. That said, there
is an unexplored question whose answer might make it possible for a slayer
to give birth to a future slayer. Here's the question ...

What makes a girl a potential slayer? If it's genetic, then it could be
possible for a slayer to give birth to another slayer - thought it would
probably be a rare event. Why?

If being a potential is genetic, then it could be inherited. A slayer who
gave birth to a daughter who is a potential. The next question is how does
the magick pick the next potential? But we are left with two questions that
I don't think are elaborated in the canon ...

(1) How does the magick work to pick the potential who will be the slayer

(2) Is being a potential something natural that is encoded in the genes?

!!!! What if being a potential is determined at birth, but happens sometime
later in childhood, perhaps as a function of the environment? Another


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Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Oct 24 15:24:44 2018
Trivia Girl: Felicia Day?

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notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Oct 24 13:49:31 2018
Trivia Girl
Jenny Mollen

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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Oct 24 13:43:16 2018
wolfguard "Is there any chance that one or more scoobies have produced slayer

None" Good to see we're in agreement here, albeit probably for different or even very different reasons:-).

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Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Oct 24 12:46:00 2018
sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who played the character of Nina Ash?

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Oct 24 12:40:49 2018
yay darklady!

deadguy qod

Probably in a cave somewhere! Or someplace remote, that has lots of animals, but no people.

Happy Non-Angel Wednesday!

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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Oct 24 12:33:23 2018
Today Wednesday, October 24th C.E.

We have SEVEN (7) Birthdays!

Miss Dark Kiss
prophecy girl

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Figaro, Miss Dark Kiss, prophecy girl
shehawken, Trigger, Viper, W-Sky!

No studying? Damn! Next thing they'll tell me is I'll have to eat jelly doughnuts or sleep with a supermodel to get things done around here. I ask you, how much can one man give?
Xander, 'The Initiative''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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lostinamerica says:
(Wed Oct 24 12:26:09 2018
Yay! DarkLady!

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YayOfTheDay says:
(Wed Oct 24 12:10:10 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for darklady!

yay darklady!

today's deadguy memorial angel wednesday question is brought to you by:

the sunnydale census office

with so many slayers in the world, how would you, as a vampire, try to go undetected?

Happy Non-Angel Wednesday!

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Dogmeat says:
(Wed Oct 24 09:47:25 2018
I worship the Flying Spaghetti
Monster and practice The Golden
Rule Religiously.

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wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 24 06:04:49 2018
Yay Slayerdaddy!!

Belated Yay Genevieve's Lucie!

Deadguy Memorial Buffy Tuesday Question

Is there any chance that one or more scoobies have produced slayer


Deadguy Memorial Angel Wednesday Question

Whose kids do the scoobies take trick-or-treating?

Dawn, Xander, and Willow's

Deadguy Memorial Angel Wednesday Question

Which of the scoobies dresses up, hands out candy, eats the candy,
doesn't want to be bothered (Halloween)?

All of them, but Buffy

Buffy hands out candy...

...and Buffy eats he candy

Faith doesn't want to be bothered.

Deadguy Memorial Buffy Tuesday Question

Was Giles eventually right about Halloween being a snoozefest or are they
still disastrous for Buffy?

The All Hallows Eve's that fall in odd years are eventful, while the ones
that fall in even years are for taunting.

Night All


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Oct 24 01:35:20 2018
I am hereabouts!

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Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Oct 24 00:00:59 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What character did Armin Shimerman play on Buffy?
Answer: Snyder

Trivia Masters: notsoshyGirl, Agent Cooper!

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Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Oct 23 19:21:42 2018
Trivia Girl: Principal Snyder!

Maverick: Well, yeah, Quidditch would be very boring...In OUR world. However, if we lived in a world where you could actually FLY on a broom we'd all feel differently. There'd be leagues and TV deals and it would be bigger than the NFL.

Vague Disclaimer: I would still not play it though. I'm terrified of heights! :-)

CC Lostinamerica

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wolfguard says:
(Tue Oct 23 18:27:36 2018

I am not "confused" about your behavior, having been subjected to it myself on
and off over the years. Your knowledge of Islam is tainted, but you do drink
from a tainted well. :)

Your, "...the desire of young girls to have children...", is another example
of over-generalizing. Part of the problem you fear lies in many young women
choosing to hold-off on having children. Some may choose not to have children
at all. Seeing as many Mexicans and folks from Central American countries are
Christian, you might consider inviting more of them to settle in the US -
that's if you're one of those Christians who are scared of being overwhelmed
by American Muslims.

I found the article you linked to the other day interesting and worth
exploring, but your cursory style of hermeneutics leaves me bored.


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lostinamerica says:
(Tue Oct 23 18:20:05 2018
Yay! slayerdaddy!

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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Oct 23 16:54:53 2018
Christopher Marlowe depends on how literally you take the term Slayer in Yay of the day's question. I don't think any daughters they have that are Potentials would be old enough to have been called yet. As for their ordinary mortal children, even more not yet a t the age to go out doing battle

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notsoShyGirl says:
(Tue Oct 23 13:35:22 2018
Trivia Girl
Principal Snyder

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Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Oct 23 12:37:56 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What character did Armin Shimerman play on Buffy?

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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Oct 23 12:27:31 2018
Today Tuesday, October 23rd C.E.

We have THREE (3) Birthdays!

Jim Grogan

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Grimma, Jim Grogan, Pete!

Jeez, don't get all Movie of the Week. I was just too cheap to buy you a real present.
Dawn, 'Blood Ties''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Oct 23 12:20:32 2018
yay slayerdaddy!

deadguy qod

Human nature being what it is, I have no doubt about offspring, whether or not they are slayers is a good question1

Happy Non-Buffy Tuesday!

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YayOfTheDay says:
(Tue Oct 23 12:03:46 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for slayerdaddy

yay slayerdaddy!

today's deadguy memorial buffy tuesday question is brought to you by:

sunnydale pediatric center - no giant snake creatures allowed

is there any chance that one or more scoobies have produced slayer offspring?

Happy Non-Buffy Tuesday!

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lostinamerica says:
(Tue Oct 23 10:59:44 2018
Maverick--Au contraire, I
would love to be able to fly around
on a broom and pay a game :)

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Maverick says:
(Tue Oct 23 05:53:15 2018
Trivia Girl: Quidditch is indeed a stupid game. One of the big weaknesses of the Harry Potter books.

Wolfguard1: I ignored your criticism as I understand your confusion about the attacks by the Left and the effective lack a of push back. I am not attacking; I am pushing back. The Left is trying to change this country from a Meritocracy to a Quotatocracy. They indulge themselves in Identity Politics and constantly attack old white men, heterosexuals, Christians, Conservatives. Some black Lefties complain about White Privilege and yet berate each other for being Uncle Toms and "acting white."
Wolfguard2: Mohammad (or whoever ultimately concocted Islam) figured out a way to exploit the young male sex drive and the desire of young girls to have children. They built a conquest ideology that is programmed to take over the earth. A young man can have up to 4 wives and can divorce them by merely saying "I divorce you" three times. He can also have captured slave girls. A girl can marry at 9, 10, or 11 and is expected to have 5 or 6 children (Jihad from the womb.) No wonder ISIS had no problem recruiting fighters. The only Sure Way to get to Heaven in Islam is to die defending the faith or enforcing the faith. For men Heaven in Islam is like a gigantic, continuous orgy with each warrior (who was killed in battle) assured of getting 72 virgins that can somehow re-virginate themselves. Meanwhile, a Muslim who separates himself from Islam is an Apostate and Apostasy is punishable by death and he goes to Gehenna which is hell. One thing that is confusing in Islam is that you can read many things in the Quran which have effectively expired; if a later directive covers the same subject matter of the earlier verse, it "abrogates" (word often used to describe this process) the earlier information. So you can read statements in the Quran that suggest the golden rule (and which are often quoted to defend Islam) only to find these are "earlier" verses and are superseded by verses that are "later" in time that are warlike.



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Oct 23 04:04:50 2018
wolfguard Yeah, there is seriously a lot of misinformation about Medicare/Healthcare among the general public. I doubt anyone in the white house or congress has any better grip on it other than 'government programs bad'

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wolfguard says:
(Tue Oct 23 03:02:56 2018
Christopher Marlowe,

Okay. This looks like the observation that whatever legislation or executive
orders were implemented by Obama were targets to be undone by Trump. I've no
problem with the observation, but I'm not sure "rubber band" is a good

Stretching a rubber band takes force because of the resistance, while
releasing the force allows the rubber band to return to its resting state.
Using this analogy Obama had to use force to overcome the resistance to his
programs, but undoing them did not require much force.

There was an article this weekend, either in the New York Times or
Atlanta Journal-Constitution that said Bernie Sanders opened the door
to ~~single payer health care~~ and/or ~~universal health care~~ and now
people from both sides are walking through it. During the time the ACA was
being developed there was one person - probably not the only person - who
said/wrote of it, ~Keep the government hands off my Medicare!!!~. This
person probably doesn't trust government but also didn't realize Medicare is
a government program.


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Oct 23 01:10:53 2018
wolfguard Pretty much whatever Obama did for the environment, civil rights, etc.

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wolfguard says:
(Tue Oct 23 01:02:44 2018
Christopher Marlowe,

What was stretched during the Obama years and snapped back afterwards?


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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Oct 23 00:51:32 2018
wolfguard I was at a forum last Saturday, a convening of various candidates for state office. After the candidates spoke their piece, they all sat at round tables, one table per district. Me and a friend sat down at the table for our districted and chatted pretty pleasantly with the candidates there. One of them talked about the 'rubber band' effect. Where something gets stretched and then snaps back. I think that's sort of what's happening here. The Obama years were stretching that band and now I think it is snapping back. How long before things get stretched again, I don't know.

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Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Oct 22 23:48:19 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Literature
Question: In what literary universe would you find the game of Quidditch?
Answer: Harry Potter

Trivia Wizards: notsoShyGirl and Agent Cooper!

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wolfguard says:
(Mon Oct 22 18:58:39 2018
Agent Cooper,

I've thought the Saudis would go with agents going beyond thier writ and
this seems to be how they are presently trying to play it. We'll see what
the Turks release tomorrow. Those who do not like what's released will
imagine the evidence manufactured.

Christopher Marlowe,

It is fascinating, I'll give you that. Americans have become accustomed to
presidents behaving within some unstated, though apparently recognized
parameters (for instance, dueling is no longer allowed). Trump sometimes
recognizes the parameters, but doesn't feel obligated to always abide by
them. One question is whether after he's gone such behaviors will be seen as
an aberration or will they set a precedent for future presidents?


I also wrote that your behavior is often similar to that you criticize in
Muslims. You're often attacking people, usually liberals.

I read the link. Nicely structured, but it needs further analysis to tease
out correlation from causation. It's general trend may not follow what we've
seen in Arab history nor perhaps in Indian history. I'll look into it.

As to Islam being a ~ complete system. Absolutely and I've noted it
before. For most of history, including for many people today, worldviews
have not distinguished between a secular and a sacred (religious) - there's
just the world as it is. One question is what happens when two or more
worldviews occupy the same land? An example: Europe in the 1500's to around
the 1700's when two major worldviews warred over whose would rule:
Catholicism or Protestantism. Millions were killed.


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Maverick says:
(Mon Oct 22 17:37:48 2018
Edited: Mon Oct 22 19:01:20 2018
Trivia Girl: "Twas Quidditch and the Slithy Toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe." Alice in Canadian Hockeyland.

Middle East Murder: They need to prosecute at least two men for the Murder. End of problem.

Mexican Caravan: We need to send in Secret Agents to sabotage their vehicles (that were probably provided by George Soros or Tom Steyer.

werewolf123: So, the Gorch Brothers rise again? I think he should find a role for Sarah as a Saloon Girl (like Miss Kitty.)

Wolfguard: I requote myself. " Muslims are bellicose and their posture is to be (and or act)
insulted and so they are forever attacking others ..." You objected, saying, paraphrasing, not by your experience. I was looking for this analysis and finally found it. I know you will not take this link, but here it is anyway. Muslim Behavior correlated to their % of the host population.



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Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Oct 22 15:19:20 2018
Is LOSERS a thing again? Awesome. I support that, even if I'm STILL never going to be able to stay awake for it. :-)

Chris Marlowe: US is still going to have a hard time dealing with Saudis, publicly anyway. Although I suspect privately they'll settle it much like I outlined earlier. No matter how bad a guy the reporter was, you can't just go murdering people you don't like, and you certainly can't be doing that in your embassies. That just makes you as bad as the bad guys.

I guess they're saying now they didn't mean for him to die, they only arrested him and he died resisting arrest, or some such. Which certainly could be true but who knows? CC Wolfguard and White Wings

Trivia Girl: The Wizarding World!!

Note how I just said "Wizarding World" and not Harry Potter? Because they're branching out and not calling it that anymore. So I humbly suggest to the Trivia Panel of Judges that it's only fair to award me the full 1st Place award and disqualify Notsoshygirl for being technically incorrect.

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notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Oct 22 14:38:32 2018
Trivia Girl
The Wizarding World of Harry Potter

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Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Oct 22 12:43:07 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Literature
Question: In what literary universe would you find the game of Quidditch?

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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Oct 22 12:36:12 2018
yay dayzee!

Goodbye Blue Monday!

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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Oct 22 12:27:54 2018
Today Monday, October 22nd C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Irenestring, Lurking Junkie, Selwyn29, Troll!

When you look back at this, in the three seconds it'll take you to turn to dust, I think you'll find the mistake was touching my stuff. Buffy, 'The Freshman'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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YayOfTheDay says:
(Mon Oct 22 11:57:52 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for dayzee!

yay dayzee!

Goodbye Blue Monday!

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Mon Oct 22 02:01:48 2018
wolfguard Because it's fascinating to watch!

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wolfguard says:
(Sun Oct 21 23:10:54 2018
Edited: Sun Oct 21 23:14:17 2018
Christopher Marlowe,

I believe what some people cannot see is that those who 'ridicule' Trump and
his policies are mostly people who did not vote for him or if foreigners
would not have voted for him. Their ridicule doesn't change the minds of
those who voted for him. It probably just amuses or angers them and
reinforces what they already believe.

One political journalist wrote that (many) Trump voters have complete
disdain for liberals who these voters see as having scorned them. Seriously,
what "identity" groups are fair game for jokes and rude comments?

Well again we see it's white men without college degrees who support Trump.

Obviously to many liberals if these men were not white or had a college
degree they would have the good sense to vote liberal.1 This is
patronizing. And it's one reason Trump supporters wake up in the morning
looking forward to reading Trump's early morning tweets to see liberals put
in their place. And smile broadly.

No matter how many mean things you say or do to someone, they still
aren't going to like you for it.
- attributed to a "J.E."

So each time the two sides hurl an insult or speak with contempt, they are
reinforcing the division. The US will rest in stasis until one side can
muster enough power to beat the other one down. Inspiring.

To be fair, some of those who voted for Trump did so for strategic purposes.
He was seen as a means to an end. Examples: religious conservatives who
wanted conservative judges and business people who wanted tax cuts and

What some liberals and Democrats do not want recognize is Trump has tried to
keep his campaign promises to his supporters. And he's not as weak as some
Democrats see him as being. A day or two ago a BBC article said his
popularity two years into office was higher than Bill Clinton or Ronald
Reagan's and near equal to Obama's.

Ridicule leads to poor analysis and poor analysis leads to poor plans. We've
got the Midwest wrapped up. Trump can't win in 2016.

1 Some of those on the right blather about liberals being evil or
fools. Brainwashed by the 'mainstream media'. They are on the opposite end
of the spectrum from the far left, but they are cut from the same cloth.


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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Oct 21 12:55:58 2018
Today Sunday, October 21st 2018 C.E.

We have FIVE (5)Birthdays!

David Fan

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Antoinette, BuffyBuff, David Fan, dawn, the Jackal or Sita!

Time for some thrilling heroics. Jayne, 'The Train Job''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

wolfguard As a policy, Brexit is terrible. As an issue that is comparable to Trump's policy, it makes me feels like the US isnt' the only one that is facing ridicule over elected leadership. Like other countries cannot turn their nose up on us because they have similar issues.

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wolfguard says:
(Sun Oct 21 05:33:36 2018
Christopher Marlowe,

You like "Brexit" as in had been a British citizen you would have cast your
vote to leave? Or, it's fascinating to watch? Something else?


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werewolf123 says:
(Sun Oct 21 04:30:01 2018
Maverick: Mel Gibson is set to co-write and direct a remake of Wild Bunch at Warner brothers.

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Oct 21 02:32:42 2018
wolfguard I kind of like Brexit, but in a rather bizarre way. Nice to know that other countries are experience challenges akin to the US

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wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 20 20:48:09 2018
Edited: Sat Oct 20 20:53:34 2018

For those Bronzers following Brexit - and they are legion - here's a good
brief from the BBC online ...

If you don't have the time or inclination to read it all, then take a look at
the writer's 2:38 minute video. Fun and informative.

The writer is Katya Adler. She's been covering the EU for over 20 years.


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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sat Oct 20 14:18:01 2018
Today Saturday, October 20th 2018 C.E.

We have TWO (2) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Lizzer, ProphecyGirl86!

Pretty cool except for the part where I was really terrified and now my knees are all dizzy. Willow, 'Listening to Fear''''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 20 11:32:17 2018
White Wings & Agent Cooper,

Over the past few hours CNN has been reporting that the Saudis said Khashoggi
was killed in a 'fist fight'. Now they are reporting he died from a choke-
hold. For years cops have used "the sleeper hold" or "naked strangle/choke" to
subdue people who otherwise could not be without lethal force. If oxygen
cannot get to the brain, then the brain goes to sleep. There is a real danger
that the hold can be applied too long and the person dies. This has happened
more than once which is why many police departments no longer sanction officer
using this choke-hold. It is plausible that the Saudi agents tried to render
Khashoggi unconscious and over did it resulting in his death. We'll see.


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wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 20 10:49:14 2018
White Wings,

During WW2 the Allies discovered one advantage of convoys was gathering
ships together made it more difficult for German U-boats to find them. This
seems counter-intuitive, but the ocean is big and relevant to it, a convoy
is small. OTOH, having ships sail separately, scattered across the ocean
increased the chances that a U-boat would encounter one of them. So, how
does this apply to 15 men with 15 suit cases? They provide 15 opportunities
for a customs agent to detect a body part.

I believe the "diplomatic pouch" can come in a variety of sizes. Why not use
two or three crates? Better yet, why not schedule some sort of art showing
of native Saudi art - or wait, a taxidermy exhibit of animals native to the
Saudi peninsula? *g* After the showing the stuffed animals or art has to be
sent home. Just add a few spare parts to the mix.

As Willow once said, ~~ I can be dark.

Stepping away from darkness, when the British government - believe it was
the government - was moving the diamond from South Africa to the UK they
created the following deception plan: the diamond was locked up in a top of
the line safe which was turn transported in high security trains and trucks
and ships, each of which was escorted by numerous well-armed guards. The
deception? The diamond was actually sent by first-class mail. It arrived
safely. *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Oct 20 07:46:05 2018
wolfguard - Wimp indeed. No two ways
about it. But LOSERs stuck in my craw.
What I suggested didnt make sense. I
turned over in bed and realized: Lovers Of
Sleepless Evening Repartee-athons.

I can barely see to go through your post,
but the Trump angle surely colored the

LOL Drac! Not newsworthy, since all sides
want it kept quiet.

My brother suggested that 15 suitcases of
15 men with diplomatic privileges would
suffice for removal. Blech.

Manana ... zzzzz

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 20 07:03:56 2018
White Wings,

You're going to bed? Wimp! *g*

I originally entered the discussion on Khashoggi, because I viewed some
people's comments as being influenced by how the affair affected President
Trump. The Anti-Trumps seemed to step in first and then the Pro-Trumps
coming to his defense. One of the Pro-Trump's arguments appearing to be that
Khashoggi's ties to the Muslim Brotherhood should temper our judgement on
his being killed inside the Saudi consulate.1

On my writing ~Trump accepted the assurances of the Saudis...~

Back on 17 OCT after speaking with the Saudis, Trump said they "denied"
Kashnoggi was killed or that they had anything to do with his disappearance.
(WARNING!!! I just realized I read Trump's "quote", but I do not remember
what it was Trump said the Saudis "denied" doing. I filled-in the "doing"
based on what I knew about the story. Very human of me. So I'll have to go
back and read the quote. What did the Saudis deny?) Anyway, Trump went on to
add ...

"...After speaking with the king, Trump floated the idea that "rogue
killers" may have been responsible for the disappearance. The president told
the AP on Tuesday that that description was informed by his "feeling" from
his conversation with Salman and that the king did not use the term...." (I
had copied and pasted this excerpt)

Anyway, I took Trump's speculation as an acceptance of the King's denial,
i.e. since the King said they didn't do anything to Khashoggi and he appears
not have been seen by his fiancee, they who or what else might be
responsible for his absence?2

What would be interesting would be to revisit this story without the Trump
angle and see how people would evaluate it. What-if ....

A Serbian journalist went into the Serbian consulate in Salzburg, Austria to
pick up this or that document. Outside his business partner waited in the
car. After a couple hours, the partner goes inside to see what's taking so
long. "You were waiting for Drac? He left ... what? A hour ago? Out the back
door there, towards the park." The partner searches. No Drac. Calls the
authorities. A few days later an unnamed source says Drac was staked inside
the consulate and the dust was swept up and taken out with the evening

Is this newsworthy? Anyone on the side of the Angels?

1 Two notes: (1) I'm taking the Muslim Brotherhood ties at face
value to expedite this post, (2) Up until tonight I've tried to use
"disappearance" rather that "death", because our sources on his being killed
came from unnamed Turks. Since KSA now says, "He's dead Jim!" I will speak
of his being killed.

]sup]2[/sup] We offered him tea and some dates and he went on his way. One
of the original statements was that Khashnoggi came to the consulate,
conducted his business, then departed the consulate (We don't know where he
went. As one story reported, what caught the Saudis out was not knowing his
fiancee was waiting outside for him).


^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Oct 20 06:23:41 2018
wolfguard - Sorry about crisis. Hang in. The nights seem longer to me as I ... mature. *g*

"It" is the responsibility for Khashoggi. Texas's own Rep. Castro claimed that Jared Kushner carried a hit list to the Saudis. Then he said he'd seen it reported somewhere (unspecified). Then he said he wasn't accusing anyone of orchestrating anything. Then he said we needed an investigation of what intelligence was shared with the Saudis (who were totally ignorant of Khashoggi, of course). But you know how it goes, the original claim always has more legs than the retractions.

Don't ponder too much on my late night posts while in a weakened condition. Or perhaps that's the condition you need to be in as a buffer for sanity. *g*

I'm going to bed, though. ;-)

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 20 05:53:29 2018
Edited: Sat Oct 20 05:54:45 2018
White Wings,

Thanks for the reveal on LOSERS! *g*

Why up? Later Life Crisis *g*

Your, "...There is, however, an effort to bring it back to these shores

I did not follow. "It"? and who is behind the effort?

ETA I read your reply from last night (earlier yesterday moring? *g*). Will
ponder and reply.


^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Oct 20 05:30:45 2018
Yay nikki!

Happy Birthday amberlynne, Angelicsoul, Carebear, CharlieX, chiquens, Falco, Gryphon, and SlayerGirl!

lostinamerica - ;-)

Christopher Marlowe - It will be interesting. They are offering up a very large and senior set of human sacrifices scapegoats suspects. The face-saving explanation is notvery convincing. The Turks are still not releasing the recording that might contradict the details. If anyone has said what happened to the remains, I haven't seen it. Maybe the Saudi operatives were enraged by a video. It only needs that to complete the explanation.

wolfguard - Lovers of late night evening repartee-athons somehow comes to mind. I'm not sure how the acronym fits that, but that's what surfaces in my memory.

Your explanation of the explanation for the current middle eastern mess has the benefit of long tradition. There is, however, an effort to bring it back to these shores ongoing. ;-)

Why are you pulling an all-nighter?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 20 04:54:11 2018

Looks like I'm going to be up all night so will drive-by several times to
engage in the wit and wisdom that is the Bronze overnight.

Time's up. Rules change.

Christopher Marlowe,

I hinted at it last night when referencing Henry II. He had become very
annoyed with Thomas Beckett and asked who would rid me of this bother? Some
of his knights or saleswords understood that as a suggestion: Cut him down
for me. So off they went to the church where they found Beckett praying and
promptly killed him. The King cried, ~ That's not what I meant!

Translated to today, someones in the Crown Prince's employ will be said to
have taken action on their own that they should not have. Whether true or
not, it might provide enough room for the KSA and the US to ease the tension
and return to business as usual.

1 I forgot what the acronym meant. :(


^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Sat Oct 20 03:12:10 2018
is such a harsh word--how
about "passing" ;)

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Oct 20 00:31:53 2018
wolfguard, Agent Cooper It will be kind of interesting to see what Trump will do now, given Saudi Arabia is now actually admitting the murder happened.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Oct 19 22:57:02 2018
yay nikki!

Happy Thank Joss It's Friday!

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Oct 19 17:27:17 2018
Chris Marlowe: I think every kind of approach imaginable has been tried in the middle east. Problem is, nothing will change until the people their want it to.

It's like a person with an addiction, you can plead and beg and threaten all you want, they are going to keep using until THEY decide they really want to stop.

I think what has to happen there is major (and I mean MAJOR) cultural and religious reform. There is hope for that in places like Iran and Afghanistan. It's bubbling under the surface right now, stifled by totalitarian regimes and hard line religious leaders.

But if say, the Iranian people could finally overthrow the mullahs, you would probably see a swift return to a much more liberal, western type culture and economy. And then maybe that would spread to other ME countries.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Oct 19 17:16:28 2018
Wolfguard: Kashoggi was a friend and supporter, if not a full member, of the Muslim Brotherhood. You know, that group that is sworn to subjugate the world under radical islam, by any means necessary? The guys who are perfectly okay with stuff like beheading infidels, lethal terror attacks on civilians, the extermination of gays and female genital mutilation?

Nobody is going to be able to make him into some kind of moderate good guy for me. And it's very telling to see who is trying to do that.

Remember what I said in my last post, that you could tell alot about each side by how they spin the news?

What does it say about a news outlet or individual that tries to portray a member of this bloodthirsty organization that is a sworn enemy of the civilized world as a fair, balanced moderate journalist?

CC White Wings

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Oct 19 12:36:06 2018
Today Friday, October 19th 2018 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to amberlynne, Angelicsoul, Carebear, CharlieX, chiquens, Falco, Gryphon, SlayerGirl!

Gunn: Well, how horrible is this thing? Lorne: I haven't read the Book of Revelations lately, but if I was searching for adjectives, I'd probably start there. 'Slouching Toward Bethlehem'''''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Fri Oct 19 11:35:13 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for nikki!

yay nikki!

Happy Thank Joss It's Friday!

^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Oct 19 06:05:07 2018
Edited: Fri Oct 19 07:58:27 2018
Yay nails!

Happy Birthday Catronia, Leitch, Mighty Mo, and Pixie!

Agent Cooper - I'd appreciate signs. I don't think I'll get them. *g*

wolfguard - I don't see that anyone was executed for Daniel Pearl's death. It's easy to miss
such things on google, but apparently someone was condemned but is still alive on appeal (or was a
few years ago). Three others were given life sentences, and one might have been freed. Khalid
Sheikh Mohammed confessed to the killing, but was never charged, and in truth, confessions of
deeds considered glorious aren't always to be believed. But while there was some horror, the
outrage faded rather quickly. The outrage always fades, unless there's some other reason to keep it
going. The JV team got away with horrors that the previous administration accepted like lambs.

I wouldn't be astonished to learn that Khashoggi left the consulate and was snatched by the Turks,
who are so far the holders of the recording and any evidence or gossip thereof. In fact, I'm not sure
that one could trust the recording, which could be stage-managed. I don't really believe any of that,
but I don't think anyone around the affair is to be trusted about the actual outcome, the ghastliness in
between, or the motives of anyone.

I read an article written by Khashoggi about the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamist contributions to
democracy. I call BS. You can call that trying to tarnish him to minimize what was probably done to
him, but I call it facing a fact. His comments about repression from MBS are a lot more credible,
sad to say, and would certainly have earned him dislike from MBS, but so would pushing the Muslim
Brotherhood. The Saudi royal family would have their own opinions of that bunch for their own
reasons, but someone favoring the Brotherhood isn't on the side of what I call freedom and
tolerance, and certainly doesn't care about women, unless they are pregnant, barefoot, and in the
kitchen. In a burkha. *snort* All the rest is gravy covering it, like a Democrat senator claiming to
not want impeachment. Certainly newsmen who accepted having an administration describe one of
their own as an enemy of the country in order to tap all his phones and his family's phones are a little
suspect in their outrage.

All the high falutin' sentiments about the sanctity of a consulate, please. Embassies are supposed to
allow safe communication of diplomats with their host country, and consulates are supposed to allow
them to provide satellite services to their citizens (or trade representatives or intelligence agents as
required). Embassies and consulates are supposed to be immune from (and protected from) attack
by their host nations, and representatives of other countries are supposed to be safe inside of them.
Khashoggi was a Saudi citizen. They are supposed to be the ones worrying about his safety.
Erdogan has no particular duty to him, and I fail to see why the possession of a green card makes
the US his guardian.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of awful things happened to people in Soviet/Russian/Chinese
embassies, mitigated only by the logistical problems of disposing of the evidence. I don't like it. I
don't like awful things happening to (most) people.

What makes you say that Trump accepted Saudi assurances? He didn't say that. He said to wait.
Why are you rushing to judgement before he's announced a response? That's not like you. Trump
now says that it looks as though something bad happened, and he's still waiting. Is it possible that
there is subtlety going on behind the scenes, in private, where subtlety tends to lurk? You know, like
renegotiating NAFTA out of sight of journalists? *g* I do think he's giving the Saudis and the Turks
a chance to come up with some stories driven by politics, bullying, threats, bribes, and a lot
bit of US pressure. I strongly believe that what Agent Cooper described is what will
happen. You can dress it up in fancier language, but the upshot will hopefully be that MBS will be
coached into better optics. There's a better chance of his being coached than Xi Jinping, whose
people are being disappeared, and where Muslim children are being separated from their parents
and the world at large is objecting about as much as it objected to Nazi concentration camps back in
the late 30s. Certainly a better chance than controlling Putin, who is doing whatever Putin does, or
Maduro doing what he's doing.

Of course the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand was a convenient match. Are you saying there
are no tensions today, no factions that wouldn't like a convenient match, nothing that couldn't be
blown up into a great deal more than anyone wanted? I think we both recognize that with elections
coming on, anything that might possibly paint Trump in a bad light will be seized on as useful,
regardless of the consequences to the world at large. Match or not, WWI extinguished a generation
of young men. Perhaps one should take a lesson before taking potshots at someone trying to find
another way. He may not succeed. No one succeeds at everything. But he should be given a
chance to try.

I'm fairly sure that I owe you an apology for the above. It's not tangents. It's disorganization. I
promise that I pruned, but I'm tired, and it feels more like stream of conscious even to me. But what
the heck. It's a post. *g*

ooh, it's J.B. Fletcher vs. the Legend of Sleepy Hollow. Time to shut down. ;-)

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 19 02:26:35 2018
Edited: Fri Oct 19 02:28:23 2018
Christopher Marlowe,

China's too big for the 10 o'clock hour (my time). What about drug abuse?
Begin with a 'simple' one - alcohol (simple cause it's legal). What are the
problems associating with alcohol?

- Damages the users' body

- A contributing factor to around half the deaths in vehicle accidents.

- Can create conditions leading to violence

- Can create conditions where people speak too freely. *g*

The end states are simple, the reverse of the above (?)

- No ill effects to the body

- No violence induced because of ingested alcohol.

- No car accidents caused by ingested alcohol

All these can be solved by not drinking, so is that the solution or the goal
or the condition to be managed?

Since some people do not want to stop drinking and some people cannot stop
drinking, then should be looking for ways to counter or mitigate alcohol's
ill-effects? The driving situation can be solved by not letting drinkers
drive, e.g. using a designated driver or perhaps an ap that prevents a
person starting a car if they are intoxicated.

Just writing as thought arise. *g* I'll dwell on China now. *g*

ETA There are a number of chronic health conditions that we cannot yet solve
- remove or nullify the cause, but that can be managed well enough for a
person to live with the condition.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Oct 19 02:16:08 2018
wolfguard What would managing looking like? If one of our problems with China is intellectual theft, what would be a way to manage such a problem, if it cannot be solved? Limit how many businesses can deal in China?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 19 01:56:17 2018
Christopher Marlowe,

I don't know if subtlety is what's needed or not, because the word describes
an action or process and I don't know what specific action or process is
needed. *g*

Some analyst said one difference between the US government and the Chinese
rulers is that the US sees the world as having problems to be solved and
China sees situations to be managed. I cannot speak for China, but I believe
the description fits the US. It'd be a useful exercise to try looking at our
policy concerns as situations to be managed.

Since I took a swipe at Agent Cooper for describing Khashnoggi as a
(possibly) bad guy, I should take a swipe at you for using the incident to
take a swipe at Trump. It's hard to get people to focus on problem-solving /
situation management when the sides gravitate to criticizing each other.

I'm an equal opportunity contrarian. *g*


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Oct 19 01:13:28 2018
wolfguard, Agent Cooper The Middle East needs subtlety and neither Trump or his Administration has it.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 19 01:13:03 2018

Curious minds research. *g*

Agent Cooper,

If you believe Khashoggi was one of those bad guys who ~hated our guts~,
then I think you're letting the needs of your side affect your reasoning. I
could be wrong. It's possible you've been following Khashnoggi's career for
years and have come to your conclusions based on it. OTOH, odds are you are
like most of us - myself included - having never heard of the guy until his
recent disappearance made the news.

Who is this guy? Most of us will go to our news source of habit to find
out. This source will likely be bias, because it wants to please its
audience. When FOX consistently speaks well of Hilary Clinton or CNN of
Donald Trump their audiences will leave looking for more 'trustworthy'
sources. If you try to minimize this effect by googling the results will be
shaped, in part, by your past viewing habits. Google's management and staff
(?) may be liberal, but its revenue is driven by ads. If Google doesn't
properly match user's revealed preferences with the appropriate advertisers,
then Google is hurting itself.

My learning about Khashnoggi and his disappearance has mostly come from the
following sources:

(Online) BBC
(Cable) Bloomberg
(Radio) FOX, CNN, BBC, POTUS ("Politics of the US for the People of the US"
political junkie station)
(Print) The Economist

- I read one of Khashoggi's articles on conditions in the Kingdom.

What specific background knowledge was I using in evaluating these reports?

- In the 70's I needed to read-in on Islamic history. Prior to this my
knowledge of the area had been restricted to Israel's security situation.

- In the 80's read-in on Saudi Arabia.

- 1990's, Arab history.

Since the 90's, I don't remember reading a book on the area. I do follow the
area through articles, essays, and occasional chapters from relevant books.
This past spring Foreign Affairs ran a good article on MBS and the
BBC did an interesting 30-minute program on the evolution of Qatar's foreign
policy. Over the past ten years if you followed the news on oil and gas,
then you got news on the KSA and its attempts at dealing with the shale
revolution. If you follow Iran, then you get some news on the Saudis.

The Saudis and Wahabbism

They go back to the beginning. It's a marriage of convenience. While the
clergy provide the legitimacy for the family's rule1 the clergy
has avoided taking sides in domestic political fights. Once the sand
settles, the clergy will find reasons to support the winner. In return the
Saudi family has allowed the clergy its say over religious matters.

Every country's citizens have their passions. Every society's young
generation will have a few who question authority. KSA tries to channel or
co-opt such folks. After the USSR invaded Afghanistan in 1979, many young
Saudis felt compelled to go an fight the infidel. Better they fight the
Soviets over there than protest us here. Go young man and fight! So they did
(Osama bin Laden being one). Eventually the war ended. Some of the fighters
harbored ill-feelings towards their own governments. There was a belief that
the conservative Gulf states' rulers were in thrall to the US and the West.
Al-Qaeda's target was more the Kingdom than it was the West. Osama bin
Laden's reasoning was an attack on the US would provoke a counter-attack
that could be portrayed as a crusade against which the people would fight
and in the process overthrow the local, corrupted leaders. Didn't work out
that way.However it did lead to some Al-Qaeda fighters attacking targets
within the Kingdom. You want to fight outside the country? Cool. You attack
the Kingdom, it's your death.

There are certainly Saudis who have sympathy and show support for Al-Qaeda
and their like; however, the Kingdom is certainly not going to support
anyone it sees as a threat - and that includes the clergy. The two questions
that face the Kingdom, as it faces any authoritarian state, is how does
power change hands among the elites and how are the people persuaded not to
revolt against the system? In making US policy towards the KSA we have to
figure how these two problems and their solutions might evolve and how we
position ourselves to respond to them. Our actions in the case of
Khashoggi's disappearance and likely death should be so calibrated with the
added complication that the actions shape the KSA to move towards behaviors
in line with international norms - such as those are.

My own current take on Khashoggi is that he is or was a man who came from
the higher ranks of Saudi society, who served the establishment, came to
have doubts that MBS' actions were serving the best interest of the KSA and
said so publicly.

I suspect MBS had his Henry II moment and asked ~ who will rid me of this
nuisance? And some of his men heeded him.

1 The only country named after a family, "Saudi" Arabia.

2 Religion encompasses more in the KSA than it does in the West.
When asked why the Kingdom does not need a constitution the answer was the
Koran is our constitution. That said, religions that want to survive will
adapt as needed. An example: interest. In general, Islam does not permit
charging interest on loans. OTOH, if you want a working financial system,
then something has to be created that can perform the function of interest.
Most Muslim countries have created an equivalent that functions as interest
but is not "interest". The circle is squared.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Oct 18 23:56:12 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Zoology
Question: When does Estivation happen?
Answer: Dry (summer) season.

Trivia Master is DaddyCAtALSO!
Trivia Joker is AGent Cooper!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Oct 18 23:48:23 2018
I am home!

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Oct 18 20:13:30 2018
wolfguard Agent Cooper I've often wondered (but not enough to research it) why the Manchus didn't just kill Sun Yat-Sen when he was a prisoner in the Legation

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Oct 18 19:14:21 2018
Wolfguard: I know right? It's like you have to pretend-scold your strategic ally, whom you are close frenemies with, for doing something nominally wrong, which was killing a member of a group that hates both your guts and wants you both to die a thousand times over.

And all while your political enemies at home gin up the story against you.

It is hard. But the way I understand it, countries have ways of dealing with this kind of delicate situation. What will probably happen is that the US will tell SA behind closed doors that we're all still good, and we really don't care about that one guy, but we are going to have to publicly chastise you for the domestic crowd, that OK? Maybe even set up some kind of weak diplomatic sanctions for a bit till this blows over. But we don't REALLY mean it and we still got your back on Iran.

And SA will say, sure, all good Bro! *wink* And the US will say OK, and in future don't be so clumsy. Ask the CIA to show you how to do this right next time.

Voila! Realpolitik!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 18 18:59:32 2018
Parking for reference...


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 18 18:42:15 2018
Agent Cooper,

If one believes killing a person inside a country's consulate or embassy is
wrong - morally and/or legally, then Kashnoggi's thoughts, actions, or
positions are moot. If Kashnoggi was tortured and/or killed in the Saudi
consulate, then the Saudis have tarnished themselves in the eyes of any
country which believes in rule of law over rule of man. We are such a

An embassy or consulate exist, in part, to lubricate interactions between
states. Civility is one key to making it work. Observance of diplomatic
custom is another. Saudi Arabia just stepped beyond the pale.

The needle that needs to be thread here is making that clear to the KSA in a
way that steers them and others away from such future behaviors without it
pushing them to retaliate. President Trump stated the cold truth and its one
every other American president understood. The difference is the others
found ways to square the circle of illusion that keeps chaos at bay. I don't
this is because Trump is stupid. I think it's because who he is was shaped
in an environment and personal history that has not transferred well to
international diplomacy.


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Oct 18 15:09:26 2018
Trivia Girl: Estivation is a phenomenon that happens in film whenever Emilio Estevez appears in a movie, epecially in a cameo.

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Oct 18 14:26:02 2018
Trivia Girl The dry season (*not* summer; the only seasons in the tropics are dry and rainy.)

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Oct 18 13:00:22 2018
Wolfguard: I wasn't praising Salman. Just laying out the fact that things aren't black and white and not what they seem.

Realpolitik isn't for the faint of heart.

Even if Salman wasn't trying to reform his kingdom, or giving the impression of doing so, the US needs to keep KSA close as a bulwark against Iran. They are a key ally in that part of the world.

And that journalist guy was not the shining example of journalistic truth some are making him out to be, either.

Puts the US in a tough situation diplomatically speaking.

And yes of course, different factions seize on every bit of news and try to twist and grind it to their advantage somehow. Welcome to 2018! :-) But by paying attention to who twists what news which way, you can come to some definite conclusions about said factions. CC White Wings

White Wings: It would help if people just wore signs.

Lostinamerica: I know! So unprofessional unlucky, right?

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Oct 18 12:39:10 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Zoology
Question: When does Estivation happen?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Oct 18 12:28:29 2018
Today Thursday, October 18th 2018 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!

Mighty Mo

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Catronia, Leitch, Mighty Mo, Pixie!

Angel's lame. His hair goes straight up, and he's bloody stupid! Buffybot, 'Intervention'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Oct 18 12:21:51 2018
yay nails!

Happy CD Thursday!

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Thu Oct 18 11:56:44 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for nails!

yay nails!

Happy CD Thursday!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 18 08:26:06 2018
White Wings,

So much in so few lines, yet most of the lines would go off on tangents. For
instance, Daniel Pearl ...

- Killed by terrorist in Pakistan. Terrorist captured, tried, and executed
by Pakistani government.

Khashnoggi ...

- Disappeared after last being seen entering the Saudi consulate in
Istanbul. Turkey's government alleges he was killed inside by the Saudis.
Some sources say Khashnoggi was accidentally killed while undergoing

If the execution of a convicted killer constitutes revenge, then vengeance
was served in Pearl's death. As to Khashnoggi's disappearance, I'm waiting
to see Turkey or Saudi Arabia's next move.

To avoid the above being a tangent, let me use it to note some people are
scurrying to frame the issue to attack or support President Trump while
we're still in the dark on the issue - What happened to Khashnoggi?

I suspect this is because both sides already believe, given the
circumstantial evidence, that Khashnoggi is dead, probably at the hands of
Saudi agents in the consulate. And since Trump quickly accepted the
assurances of the Saudis that they didn't do it and went on to state the
obvious1 he both damaged the rules of the game and opened himself
to attack by his opponents. Seeing that opening, his supporters rushed in
waving hastily creating talking points why it's not that big a deal that a
person was murdered in the consulate of a major US ally.

"It's worst that a crime, it's a blunder" - Talleyrand

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is important for its oil, its standing in the
Islamic world2, and its role as a counterweight to Iran in the
Gulf.3 US foreign policy towards the KSA has to have its roots in
understanding the realities of the country. This is not done by trying to
find the right color lens with which to view the Crown Prince.

Finally, I can't pass up the analogy of the assassination of the Archduke.
The Great War that followed the assassination was not caused by the
assassination. Most European leaders were not overwhelmed by the Archduke's
death (In his own realm, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, some nobles were glad
to see him go). The fire for WWI was set. The assassination was a convenient
match. Imperial Germany was strong, but believed it was only time before it
would be overtaken by a growing Russia, And then there was France, still
smarting over her losses in the Franco-Prussian War. Best to take down both
before they got too strong. Just needed the right opportunity and the
assassination provided it.

1 ~ Sad as it may be, I'm not sacrificing the well-being of
millions of American workers to see justice done for the death of one man at
the hands of another state.

Oh, what would I have had Trump do? Disassemble like a proper statesman.

2 The Arabian peninsula is where Islam began. The Kingdom is the
"guardian" of two of the three most holy cities for Islam. Many believers
believe the Koran can only be truly read in Arabic. Oh, discounting this
because one believes Islam is evil is moronic.

3 As is seen in how one refers to the Gulf - Persian or Arabian.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 18 07:11:26 2018
White Wings,

Just finished the first couple episodes of the new season of Riverdale
and thought to check the Bronze one last time for the night....

Skimmed. Will read and try to reply in a bit. On LOSERS time. *g*

Lie to Me


^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Oct 18 04:19:47 2018
Edited: Fri Oct 19 08:01:28 2018
Yay Genevieve's Lucie!

Happy Birthday Cole_Xavier, Killabong, and loop!

lostinamerica - Yeah, beheading is kind of a dicey interrogation technique.

Agent Cooper - It's all very simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true. The bad
guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them
and save the day. No one ever dies and... everybody lives happily ever after.

Yeah. Especially in that part of the world, where life is cheap. Let's not forget that everyday Saudi
justice involves removing body parts for crimes, and family feuds are averted by paying blood
money. I believe that the US has paid for deaths in that part of the world back to well, probably
back to Desert Storm or before.

Someone on google was saying the reason the Turks are pushing back at the Saudis because they
want to be a sanctuary state for members of the Muslim Brotherhood and they want everyone to
know the Saudis will get their hands burned if they reach into Turkey. Anyway, I suspect a scarcity
of white hats.

I imagine that the Saudis will wind up paying a heavy (and mutually-agreed on) price for this and will
learn to be a lot more careful about how they conduct their business. Good grief.

wolfguard - I think you'd have to go back to WWI to find a really strong reaction to one
murder, and that turned out so well. What do you think Trump should do?

From what I found in a brief google, the Washington Post is pushing the Muslim Brotherhood as one
of the forces for freedom and enlightenment and democracy. I regard that as a level of mendacity
akin to saying that Benghazi was caused by a video. If Khashoggi's disagreement with MBS about
freedom and enlightenment was in fact about MBS bucking the hard line religious factions (partly
for his program and mostly for regime security) and Khashoggi pushing the Moslem brotherhood,
then bringing that up for present discussion is entirely legitimate. It introduces motives and possibly
threads of power and plots that are not part of the current public narrative.

I could believe that the sorry affair took place in Turkey so that the US wouldn't be embarrassed by
having it occur on US ground. It was atrocious and vicious and stupid and not necessary, but it's
not an isolated occurrence in the world. Just recently there was a black-clad trespasser in the
Gulen compound in Pennsylvania. Is it possible that Erdogan (having failed to trade a hostage for
Gulen) was taking his own direct action? Why weren't the press and Congress demanding serious
action when the JV team was beheading people on video or burning men alive, or kidnapping and
raping women or committing genocide with the Yazidis? I don't remember calls for revenge when
Daniel Pearl was beheaded. Am I wrong about that? One could almost believe that there's mostly a
lot of pre-election outrage at restraint (and pondering the unsatisfactory alternatives) being
generated. It's at least more likely that MBS could take counsel over handling of future events than
Putin would.

Excuse me while I duck back inside my bubble where "The good guys are always stalwart and true.
The bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats".

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Oct 18 03:33:39 2018
wolfguard I just got a book
the other day Teach yourself how
to learn
. I haven't started it
but I hope to learn. *g*

^ v
Comma says:
(Thu Oct 18 01:16:19 2018
Tonight's episode of 'SEAL TEAM' is bringing back memories that I buried long ago.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Oct 18 00:49:12 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who almost ended the world in the Angel episode 'Happy Anniversary'?
Answer: Gene Rainey

Too tough for even notsoShyGirl!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 18 00:40:22 2018
Agent Cooper,

The Saudi you're praising is Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman. His father is
King Salman. Without going into the history of political succession in the
Kingdom, Salman upset the date cart by making his son Crown Prince.

He is comfortable in the ways of the West and knows how to portray himself
to advantage. He accepts over the next few decades the Kingdom and its
citizens must wean themselves from an oil and gas based economy. He believes
he is the only man that can do it. Since becoming Crown Prince he has
gathered the levers of power into his hands. MBS is an authoritarian and if
he has his way he'll be the "Sun King" of the Gulf.

Painting MBS as our man in the Gulf is ludicrous. Framing Kashnoggi as a
threat to the West is a sophomoric exercise. Instead of dealing with the
realities, the Trumpites and Anti-Trumpites look for ways to wield the
situation to their own domestic political needs.

RE: Truth Serum

If the KSA or factions within wanted to kill Kashoggi then there were
probably better ways to have done it several hands removed. This is why I
believe the odds are he was accidentally killed while either being
interrogated1 or prepared for covert transport back to the KSA.
That said, given the reaction of the Trump administration to the
assassination of Kim's half-brother at an airport and the attempted
assassination of two Russian exiles in the UK, perhaps some countries do not
feel it necessary to be discreet when assassinating people in other
sovereign countries.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Oct 17 23:49:10 2018

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Wed Oct 17 22:49:59 2018
Agent Cooper--They didn't
murder him, he just kinda died on
them--involuntary manslaughter at
best ;)

Yay! Genevieve's Lucie!

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Oct 17 19:14:47 2018
Agent Cooper The sSiters of jhe were third season and were simply opening the Hellmouth. It was the Vahrall from S-4 which were their own sacrifice to open things up

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Oct 17 18:39:43 2018
Wolfguard: "Tector?" That's a name for a killer robot from the future. NOT a vampire cowboy!

Wolfguard II: Are the Saudi's now saying truth serum killed that journalist? That would be out of character.

Anyhoo, apparently the waters are even murkier on that than I thought. It turns out the journalist was not that nice of a guy himself. If anybody has been paying attention, the new Saud King or whatever has turned the KSA away from radical islam and has been pushing a more moderate approach. He is an admirer of western culture and rejects hard line Islam, and has been trying to institute reforms.

This "journalist" turns out to be a hard line islamic believer, a card carrying member of the muslim brotherhood and has been basically publishing negative stories about the new Saudi leader, presumably in an effort to thwart that reform effort.

Not that any of that is a good reason to murder him. Well. On the other hand: Muslim Brotherhood. But still, not good optics and probably not the best way to approach this for a supposedly enlightened leader.

Kinda tricky for the US to handle diplomatically. Especially since we want to encourage reform in the middle east and because KSA is the biggest ally we have against Iran in the region.

The world is a weird place and not often black and white.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Oct 17 18:29:31 2018
Trivia Girl: Those three demon chicks from that one cult that tried to jump into the hellmouth at the old high school that one time. The Sisterhood of Something-Something yada yada... And the Scooby gang has to go stop them and Spike helps and I think Riley too. And they almost do it but Buffy follows one down into the hole on a rope and grabs her up just before she (the Demon Chick, not Buffy) can fall all the way down and Riley pulls her back up.

I didn't even google, swear to god!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 17 17:58:47 2018
Trivia Girl,

The tag team of notsoShyGirl and Agent Cooper???


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Oct 17 12:42:46 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who almost ended the world in the Angel episode 'Happy Anniversary'?

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Oct 17 12:35:14 2018
yay genevieve's lucie!


Oh I'm sure Dawn has a few little ones by now. I can't really imagine anyone else though.

Happy Non-Angel Wednesday!

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Oct 17 12:20:35 2018
Today Wednesday, October 17th 2018 C.E.

We have THREE (3) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Cole_Xavier, Killabong, loop!

Hey, man, where are my pants? I have my hippo dignity! Oz, 'What's My Line? (2)''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Wed Oct 17 12:18:22 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for genevieve's lucie!

yay genevieve's lucie!

today's deadguy memorial angel wednesday question is brought to you by:

the sunnydale halloween parade

whose kids do the scoobies take trick-or-treating?

Happy Non-Angel Wednesday!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 17 05:58:57 2018
White Wings,

That's exactly how it must have happened!



^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Oct 17 03:13:11 2018
Happy Birthday Bishop, BlueStarAdept, Chamelon, David Greenwalt, Kari, Phillygirl, Smyle, and Wendy!

Christopher Marlowe - Your generosity is overwhelming. ;-) Three rivers flooded overnight. 5 dams have been opening floodgates. I missed the whole thing, working quietly from home until late afternoon, when I decided to take a break and look at some local news.

Maverick,wolfguard - Buffy's Lyle and Tector lived in the 1800s, didn't they? I expect Sam Peckinpah got the names from them. It makes sense in the Buffyverse.

lostinamerica - Lost many people accidentally? *g*

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 17 00:42:56 2018

Though I never saw it, I do recall reading about the violence being graphic
and (often) in slow motion. Also recall the story being set in the early
1900's and being about a criminal gang's last shot at a big score. For some
reason The Wild Bunch makes me think of The Professionals. I
never saw it, but did read MAD magazine's parody of it. *g*


^ v
Maverick says:
(Wed Oct 17 00:22:51 2018
Wolfguard: I've seen "The Wild Bunch" (a very long time ago) but don't remember a thing about it, kind of how I remember "The Magnificent Seven," although I DID like it. Sam Peckinpah has an excellent reputation among directors. I remember perhaps overuse of slow motion and still photography. Still the actors in "The Wild Bunch" were quality "cowboy" actors at the top of their game. Maybe put it on your "Must see" list. I'm certain you can check it out of your local library. Still, what is a Tector? Maybe short for Protector? That's my guess.

A Story About How America Was Almost Destroyed By Criminals


What Is Love?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 17 00:05:51 2018


A bit of homage? I've never seen The Wild Bunch, but I've cast a fond
eye on Cimarron's 1911 based on the movie's 1911.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Oct 16 23:28:15 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What were the names of
the cowboy vampires in Bad Eggs?
Answer: Gorchs

Trivia Masters: Agent Cooper,

No yays or dead qod, oldmanfan
must be on vacation again.

wolfguard That is the only
place I've ever seen a 'Tector'

^ v
Maverick says:
(Tue Oct 16 19:23:25 2018
Trivia Girl: Billy Bob (aka "B-B")and Tommy Joe (aka "Bubba")

Wolfguard, Agent Cooper: Suggest you check Imdb for the Cast and characters of Sam Peckinpah's "The Wild Bunch" Warren Oates and Ben Johnson.

Comma: How old is the Portrait of Dorian Grey?

Nathan Fillion as "The Rookie" premieres tonight



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Oct 16 19:13:27 2018
Comma And Vincent Price, whom I associate closely with Wilde for professional reasons, would have been 107 last April.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Oct 16 18:14:37 2018
Trivia Girl,

Lyle & Tector Gorch

I'd like to know how the writer came up with "Tector".

Lostinamerica & Agent Cooper,

O.D. on truth serum. Just remembered this from The Dagger Affair by
David McDaniel, copyright 1964.


When the image steadied, the man was looking around nervously. The voice
spoke again. "You apparently will not cooperate without a little prodding.
Let us know when you have decided to talk."

The dial in the lower lefthand corner of the frame stirred a little off zero
and rose perhaps a tenth of the scale. But the effect was totally
unexpected. The pulse and respiration shot up and skin conductivity went
off-scale in a moment. The man struggled against the clamps in panic, and
grasped. "No! The leader is Keldur - Kim Kel..." His voice caught and

The polygraph record showed a deep breath gasped in and held as the heart
spasmed violently twice, and lasped into slight irregular twitchings. The
electric current was cut off at once, but the heart contracted again as the
man in the chair made an awful sound and strained against the clamps.

The respiration trace showed one last shuddering exhalation as the heart
stopped. The man slumped loosely in the chair, like a puppet with its
strings cut. Skin conductivity began to fall slowly. Blood pressure fell.
Pulse and respiration were perfectly straight lines. after a while the
picture cut off and the screen went dark.

Napoleon Solo glanced across the table. Illya was studying the backs of his
hands intently. Napoleon reached for a carafe of water, and poured himself a
glass. His mouth and throat seemed uncommonly dry. They had seen men die
before. but watching a machine reading out every bodily function,
automatically recording every detail of his last moments was not pleasant

As soon as the screen lit up, the spokesman said, "I don't believe I made it
clear to you the scale on the voltmeter. The amount is registered just
before the subject's heart attack was quite small - it would have been
moderately painful, but by no means fatal except in the cases of a diseased
heart or some other physical weakness. This man's heart was strong and
regular until the pain was applied ...

Apparently the man panicked when he realized we were going to apply pain
stimuli. He blurted out the name of Kim Keldur at the last moment, but the
stimulus was applied anyway." He paused. "The interrogator was too quick. He
has been disciplined."


The interrogators and the spokesman were THRUSH operatives.


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Oct 16 15:15:21 2018
Trivia Girl: The Gorch's!


Lostinamerica: Yeah, they were "aggressively interrogating" him and he died. Accidentally. This is the official Turkish statement. I'm not making this up.

^ v
Comma says:
(Tue Oct 16 13:50:10 2018
Happy 164th birthday Oscar Wilde.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Oct 16 12:34:36 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What were the names of the cowboy vampires in Bad Eggs?

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Tue Oct 16 12:32:40 2018
So the Saudis "accidentally" killed
that journalist? I hate when that
happens ;)

Belated Yay! ShadowQuest!

I thought about you last night--go
Pack go, what a game! And at home
too :)

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Oct 16 12:19:37 2018
Today Tuesday, October 26th 2018 C.E.

We have NINE (9) Birthdays!

David Greenwalt
Tara MacLay as played by Amber Benson

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Bishop, BlueStarAdept, Chamelon, David Greenwalt, Kari, Phillygirl, Smyle, Tara MacLay, Wendy!

Xander: Look who's got a bad case of Dark Prince envy. Dracula: Leave us. Xander: No, we're not going to "Leabbb you." And where'd you get that accent, Sesame Street? "One, Two, Three - three victims! Maw ha ha!" 'Buffy vs Dracula'''''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Oct 16 04:20:45 2018
white wings I am always
happy to share..;)

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Oct 16 03:17:30 2018
Yay ShadowQuest!

Happy Birthday angelgazer, drunkenfairy, echo, Kristen, lonegun, Lurkerfish, mudpuppy, Myxti, Nightshade, Original Jessica, RedThunder, and SlayedMyself!

Christopher Marlowe - We're having lovely weather. 46 and rain. Thank you so much for sending it on. It's a trifle unusual for mid-October. For us, I mean. ;-)

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Oct 16 02:53:27 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Presidents
Question: Who was the first president to get a brown belt in Judo?
Answer: Roosevelt. Maybe he can kick Trump's butt

Kick-***: notsoShyGirl, wolfguard
*** over head: Agent Cooper!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Oct 16 02:35:40 2018
I am home, apologies for the lateness. I had two events back to back that I needed to attend.

^ v
cmarlowe says:
(Tue Oct 16 00:40:26 2018
i hope to be home soon!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Oct 15 23:34:23 2018
Agent Cooper,

Elvis was not the president, he was the "King". Nevertheless, to humor you ...

Trivia Girl,

Elvis "Shuto" Presley


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Oct 15 19:30:45 2018
Now see, you are all on the wrong track. Trivia Girl never said president of WHAT exactly. And Elvis knew karate and stuff. Plus, I'm sure he was president of SOMETHING at some point in his life.

So, the correct answer is Elvis, of course.

If you want to solve these trick questions, you guys have to learn to think out of the box and use deductive reasoning like I do.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Oct 15 18:09:18 2018
Trivia Girl,

Teddy "Tomoe-Nage" Roosevelt


^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Oct 15 14:48:50 2018
Trivia Girl
Theodore Roosevelt

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Oct 15 14:09:04 2018
Trivia Girl: Elvis Presley!

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Oct 15 12:40:41 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Presidents
Question: Who was the first president to get a brown belt in Judo?

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Mon Oct 15 12:28:37 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for shadowquest!

yay shadowquest!

Goodbye Blue Monday!

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Oct 15 12:22:19 2018
Today Monday, October 15 2018 C.E.

We have TWELVE (12) Birthdays!

Original Jessica

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to angelgazer, drunkenfairy, echo, Kristen, lonegun, Lurkerfish, mudpuppy, Myxti, Nightshade, Original Jessica, RedThunder, ayedMyself!

I kissed him, and I told him that I loved him. And I killed him. Buffy, 'Faith, Hope & Trick''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Oct 15 05:27:51 2018
Happy Birthday Candy, Liquorice Stick, Lurkerfish, RubberDevilDucky, Squints, TB, and ying!

R.I.P. Malista

Christopher Marlowe - I had a very lazy day. Naps seemed to be required activities. It was hot (88) and humid out. The heat before the front that has already hit you. The temperature is dropping rapidly as I type, so I'm guessing it's here.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Oct 15 05:14:06 2018
Christopher Marlowe,

Great weather in Atlanta. How was your Sunday? Meetings? *g*


Two jokes I heard in June 1967 after the Six Day War...

(1) Let's got to Israel and see the Pyramids.

(2) How many gears does an Egyptian tank have?

(( 5, 1-forward and 4-in reverse))



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Oct 14 23:28:47 2018
I trust everyone had a splendid Sunday?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Oct 14 15:31:25 2018
Today Sunday, October 14th 2018 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!

Liquorice Stick

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Candy, Liquorice Stick, Lurkerfish, Malista, RubberDevilDucky, Squints, TB, ying!

Also, I can kill you with my brain. River, 'Trash''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Oct 14 14:34:46 2018
Good morning beta!

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Sun Oct 14 12:30:40 2018
Belated Happy Birthday
and Leather Jacket!

^ v
Maverick says:
(Sun Oct 14 10:13:33 2018
Wolfguard, white wing: You guys are missing out on an old joke and it goes something like this: During the 6 Day War an Egyptian and an Israeli tank collide and the Egyptian jumps out of his tank and say, "I surrender. I surrender" and the Jewish guy jumps out of his tank, holding the back of his neck, and says, "Whiplash. Whiplash." Of course, reinforce the hull, but when the Chinese hit you, call the Intenational police and file a police report. Have them test the Chinese Captain for a DWI.

I'm Looking for an expression, from an old episode of "Star Trek, Next Generation" where they are stopped in space and cannot advance or retreat (for some reason I forget) but their Momentum is Zero and they used an expression like Zero Momentum but that's not it. Can anyone remember what it was?


Love Theme from "Star Trek, TMP"

^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Oct 14 07:12:40 2018
wolfguard - That makes more sense and even more fun. I had the wrong end of the stick. I
thought you wanted a cheap fake warship to lure them on. Ever more practical, you realized that the
Chinese are liable to menace anything coming into *their* international waters. So a tanker (without
requiring an expensive makeover) would work fine. They could blink and lose face, stay away and
lose face, or collide and die, and the local fishies would have the basis for a new reef. Win, win, win

A few explosives fireworks would still be fun.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Oct 14 05:55:02 2018
Edited: Sun Oct 14 05:57:27 2018
White Wings,

I'm not thinking of using an oil tanker as a warship. What the Chinese Navy
has done a few times is to have one of its ship put itself in the path of
one our ships forcing us to bear off or come to emergency stop to prevent a
collision. Oil tankers aren't so maneuverable or able to come to 'sudden'

So, commission an oil tanker and convert it into whatever.1 Task
it to steam through international waters claimed by China. Any Chinese
warship that chooses to get too close will be at risk, because the tanker
simply cannot maneuver quickly enough to avoid it should conditions quickly
change. If a Chinese warship cut in front trying to force the tanker to bear
off or stop - it'll get cleaved into because it will simply impossible to
stop or bear off - too much inertia.

OTOH, a Chinese warship could come to stop far enough ahead that we could
bear off or go around, but it'd be so far that it loses the the perception
of the US having to conform to their actions. We might even play the
situation and ask the Chinese warship if it's experiencing problems and need
our help. :)

ETA We could say such a commissioned tanker is a some sort of experimental
or research ship. Whatever sounds reasonable. *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Oct 14 05:14:08 2018
Happy Birthday Candiz, Cashmere, DreamLurkeer, Ed6, Hello, goth_gurl, Jipsy_Girl, Kazanjian, Leather Jacket, Mandakay, Morbius, and Nikana!

wolfguard - We both have our pipe dreams. I have my US islands, you have a fake warship. An oil tanker probably has a far different hull shape, and couldn't pass as something like a destroyer. Do we still have converted carriers? On the other hand, from time to time warships do reach their expiration dates. Could one dream of a remote control ship loaded with explosives?

Christopher Marlowe - I'm sorry about winter.

It reached 88 here, according to my back porch thermometer. However, by Monday a modified version of your weather will reach here. *shiver* Although I am not expecting snow. Just 50s and rain.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Oct 14 02:05:59 2018
winter has finally arrived, snow, sleet and wind. Yuck.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 13 18:05:01 2018

Because I can. :)


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Sat Oct 13 15:14:44 2018
Today Saturday, October 13th 2018 C.E.

We have TWELVE (12) Birthdays!

Leather Jacket

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Candiz, Cashmere, DreamLurkeer
Ed6, Hello, goth_gurl, Jipsy_Girl, Kazanjian, Leather Jacket, Mandakay
Morbius, Nikana!

on't you just love this party? Everything's so fancy, and there's some kind of hot cheese over there. Kaylee, 'Shindig'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Sat Oct 13 04:25:50 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Sports
Question: What team did Roberto Enrique Clemente Walker play for? Answer: Pittsburg Pirates

Trivia master as always is ME

^ v
des says:
(Sat Oct 13 03:39:10 2018
Edited: Sat Oct 13 03:40:34 2018
The emergency bronze posting system is separate and different from the Bronze Beta password renewal system. [grins at ChristopherMarlowe] {talk about timing}

This is a test of the Bronze Beta password renewal system. If this had been a real post, a message or comment would have been typed. This concludes this test of the Bronze Beta password renewal system.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 12 23:32:46 2018
Edited: Fri Oct 12 23:33:09 2018
Just read that one of the original Boy Scout merit badges was "Master-of-
Arms". It had one requirement ...

Master 3 of the following combat skills: single stick, boxing, jiu jitsu,
wrestling, quarterstaff, and fencing.

I missed this one. :(


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Oct 12 23:14:53 2018
werewolf123 Thank you!

this is only a test post of the emergency bronze posting system, if this was an actual post, I would be around tonight

^ v
werewolf123 says:
(Fri Oct 12 21:51:47 2018

good game if you have a couple of days to play it.

sequel invasion russia

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Oct 12 18:57:22 2018
Mid-day posting. Won't be online
tonight due to back to back board

That gives everyone more time to
answer the trivia question!

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Fri Oct 12 12:38:25 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Sports
Question: What team did Roberto Enrique Clemente Walker play for? Hint:

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Fri Oct 12 12:31:06 2018
Yay! Peace Fire!

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Oct 12 12:25:36 2018
Today Friday, October 12th 2018 C.E.

We have SEVEN (7) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to sara, angela, FYR, Fiveby5, KIMP, Kytee, sts!

Just keep walking, preacher-man. River, 'Jaynestown'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Oct 12 12:15:27 2018
yay peace fire!

Happy Thank Joss It's Friday!

^ v
Comma says:
(Fri Oct 12 11:59:17 2018
Anyone in the PC area: Verizon has brought in portable towers, COMCAST has had wifi hotspots up for over thirty hours, and a lot of businesses, with generators, will let you charge your devise for free. Communications is the big key right now. I know that a lot of all are living in your cars. Please leave a window cracked. We do not need any more added to the death tolls from a leaking car exhaust system.


^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Fri Oct 12 11:41:28 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for peace fire!

yay peace fire!

Happy Thank Joss It's Friday!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 12 07:17:43 2018
Edited: Fri Oct 12 07:26:54 2018
White Wings,

There are many people who believe the existence of nuclear weapons prevented
a major war between the US and the USSR. Both sides knew what was behind
that door. Not certain how well this logic applies in world of multiple
rivalries between nuclear-armed adversaries.

Many historians of wars think small wars sometimes prevent big wars. One
reason is unrealistic assessments get popped. OTOH, a small war may not
settle matters leaving the situation to fester into the future.

ETA Some others share your wish that the US construct some islands of its
own in the South China Sea. China may argue they built their islands atop
natural features belonging to China.

Since a common Chinese tactic is to play chicken between their ships and
others, I'd like to commission an oil tanker as a US warship. Paint it haze
grey, replace the oil with water, and dare the Chinese to ram it. *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Oct 12 03:54:41 2018
Yay Jynx!

Happy Birthday Annika, Charming Slayer, and Nyte Wolf!

Comma - Congratulations on having all your relatives survive unharmed and your properties make it through undamaged! It's great that you have the resources to offer your relatives to help them, but the losses are horrifying.

Dogmeat - *waves back*

wolfguard, DaddyCatALSO - I've never read or heard of anyone on the Allied side suggesting that the casualties of invasion would not have been much greater had the bombs not been dropped, especially those who lived through that period. I did know people who lived through the war in Japan, and read some accounts, and the populace was in seriously bad shape. They were starving. They suggested that the will to fight had not been so great, but they were not in the military. I fear the commanders still had the stomach to fight on and the control over their military to do it. A blockade and bombing might have taken a considerably longer time.

I was having a wooly-headed tender-hearted sigh over our letting that awful genie out of the bottle. I was forgetting that over the ensuing generations, the possibility of mutually assured destruction might have prevented a major land war from breaking out, and saved lives, even if the less widespread proxy wars were costly. I was also forgetting that the genie was ready to pop the cork from the moment the Nazis got the idea, and we got to it first, and the Soviets were thinking about it as well.

wolfguard(2) - I wish the US would/could build its own island bases in the South China Sea. But it's kind of expensive. I still find the idea amusing.

lostinamerica - I'm surprised there are only ~200 people possibly missing. I think a lot more people failed to evacuate, but if there had been mass casualties, surely we'd have heard that by now.

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wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 12 03:26:41 2018
Agent Cooper,

3 of 3

China depends on overseas resources and markets for its economic well-being.
Consequently China is vulnerable to attacks and threats of attacks on its sea-
lines-of-communication (SLOC). Much, if not most, of shipping coming and going
to China passes through the Indian Ocean. Attacks on such shipping is a sub's
traditional reasoning for being. Of course China is strongly aware of such
threats and its "string of pearls" and "Belt and Road Initiative" are policies
designed, in part, to minimize such threats.

But in the beginning of strategy, one must ask how the means of force can
achieve the ends one seeks.

Night All


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wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 12 02:43:54 2018
Agent Cooper,

2 of 2 3

In the mid-1990's China became angry with Taiwan over its moves to separate
itself further from the main-land. To demonstrate its anger, China conducted
missile-firing tests aimed at Taiwan. After the second tests, the Clinton
administration sent two carrier battle groups to the scene. The
Nimitz group sailed through the Taiwan Straits. China took heed ...

... and began a long-term plan to develop its military forces, especially
its navy, so to push the USN further and further out to sea, away from the
mainland. China combines land-based aircraft and missiles, surface warships,
submarines and eventually carriers (it now has two). The plan is to develop
in layers: "The First Island Chain" and then the "Second Island Chain", and
one day perhaps the "Third Island Chain".

This is a strategy than begins with sea denial1 and works towards
sea control. The USN appears to be focused on power projection - being able
to strike at China from the sea. Consequently its plans oppose China's
plans. We want to be able to hit if need be and they want to prevent us from
being able to so or threaten to do so.

On first appearance it might look like the US is the potential aggressor, in
so much as we're off their coast and they're not off ours. OTOH, one could
argue the US threat is designed to persuade China not to force its will on
regional allied states. Cases in point: the East and South China Sea

1 Another phrase, "Anti-Access Area Denial". Google it for the


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Oct 12 02:33:05 2018
dogmeat/b] Hey there! Whatcha up to these days?

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Fri Oct 12 02:31:31 2018
Comma--Good to hear, you must be relieved :) I have two friends who
vacationed in Port St. Joe and San Blas recently, and while they supposedly
aren't as bad as Mexico Beach there's lots of damage :(

Those 20 people they found in Mexico Beach who decided to stay are cra-zy and I
hope the 200+ others who were supposed to have stayed decided to leave and
weren't swept away with their houses :(

Looks like Panama City, the Redneck Riviera, didn't fare so well either.

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wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 12 02:15:03 2018
Greetings Dogmeat :)

Agent Cooper,

1 of 2

Navies fight wars through sea control, sea denial, and power projection.
1 One can make a more detailed list of naval operations, but most
could be fit into one of these three categories.

(1) Sea Control involves establishing conditions where your ships, military
and merchant, can steam freely and safely while the enemy's cannot.
Realistically sea control is a transient state, you can create the
conditions for a relatively limited time over a limited space. The campaign
against the U-Boats both in WWI and WWII were fights over sea control. Much
of the USN's efforts during the Cold War were designed to achieve sea
control over convoy routes in the Atlantic should a war break out with the
Soviet Union.

(2) Sea Denial differs from Sea Control in you're not able to create
conditions where your ships can steam safely, but you are able to create
conditions where the enemy's ships cannot steam safely. An example would be
placing mines or firing land-based missiles or guns.

(3) Power Projection is attacking the land from the sea. The attack could be
by missile, aircraft, gun, Marines, or SEALs. Since the Cold War ended, the
USN has focused on Power Projection over Sea Control or Sea Denial.

1 During peacetime one could add presence, deterrence, disaster
relief/humanitarian assistance. During both peace and war navies conduct


^ v
Dogmeat says:
(Fri Oct 12 01:26:31 2018

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 12 01:24:56 2018
Christopher Marlowe,

Not successfully.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 12 01:05:34 2018
Agent Cooper,

From last night ...

"...Under international law, most of the South China Sea is international
waters. China does not recognize these laws. Various southeast Asian
countries have rights, under international law, to waters off their coasts.
China does not recognize many of these claims.

China has contested control of various reefs and islands. They usually use

(cont) maritime law enforcement ships to coerce other countries' ships. For
instance, Chinese fishing trawlers will enter other countries' zones or
seas. If the trawlers are challenged, then the MLE vessel will threaten to
ram or ram or use water cannons to drive off challengers. Sometimes Chinese
warships will be just over the horizon.1

In the past few years, China has constructed ~half a dozen artificial
islands in the disputed areas on which they have built harbors and
airstrips, radars and missile installations. Short of an all out war with a
peer competitor, China effectively controls the South China Sea.2

The US' general position is that countries bordering the South China Sea
need to work matters out according to international law, but takes no
position on individual cases.3 The USN does sail through waters
claimed by China, but not recognized by international law. The recent
incident at sea involved such an operation.

More in a bit on US-China war at sea.

1 China and Vietnam did engage in a naval battle over the Paracel
islands in the early 70's. I believe they also had a violent dispute over
some reef in the 80's.

2 China has also enacted an "air defense identification zone"
over the South China Sea (they've already done it over the East China Sea.
Essentially it says to anyone wanting to fly through these areas that they
have to first check-in with China to avoid possible defensive actions. It's
laying claim of sovereignty over the seas below. Most, if not all, domestic
airlines have obeyed. OTOH, when it was first announced over the East China
Sea, the US immediately flew military aircraft through the zone to make the
point that we do not recognize it.

3 Excepting perhaps China's ignoring the rulings of international


^ v
cmarlowe says:
(Fri Oct 12 01:01:50 2018

i wonder how feasible it would be to invade the US?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Oct 12 00:36:40 2018

The estimates I've seen for US casualties incurred in invading Japan is one

The two other options proposed for defeating Japan were naval blockade and a
continuation of conventional strategic bombing. Some historians believe what
lead Japan to finally surrender was the Soviet's declaration of war against
Japan in August 1945.

I've never known any solider or Marine who served in the Pacific during WWII
and who was facing 'participation' in invading Japan who did not believe
dropping the nuclear bombs was the right thing to do.


^ v
Comma says:
(Fri Oct 12 00:25:52 2018
Out of nine family members, living in the PC area, all are alive and accounted for. Four houses totaled and three others damaged. My condo, in Destin, received no actual damaged. Some of the other condos did lose some windows, and the roof lost shingles. When they can get out of their neighborhoods, my family members with either go stay in the condo or go up to my farm near Slocomb, Alabama. Thanks to Comcast setting up hot spots, I have been able to email the family, the farm caretaker, and the building management at the condo.


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Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Oct 11 23:37:03 2018
Edited: Thu Oct 11 23:38:13 2018
yay jynx!

Happy CD Thursday!

Sorry for the lack of trivia today...I woke up late and had to rush to work....

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Oct 11 15:31:27 2018
white wings wolfguard The invasion of the Main Islands would have resulted in many more Japanese casualties than Hiroshima/Nagasaki, not to mention Allied casualties. The The question is would the invasionkk have happened?

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Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Oct 11 14:35:37 2018
Wolfguard: I wish I could find the article I read, I think you'd find it interesting. Fairly sure it was on either Jane's or Rand. And I read it over the summer. I'll look for it again.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Oct 11 12:52:19 2018
Wolfguard: Darnit! I was getting into that. I hate cliff hangers!


And actually, the article mentioned that very idea you were, I think, heading into: The big advantage the Chinese would have is that while the US can move its subs and carriers around, it's bases are fixed. And vulnerable. The expectation is that China would immediately hit and probably take out all US naval and air bases in Japan, Korea, etc. within missile range. Which would go a long way to hampering US operations. ...for a short time.

The problems with this strategy are that A. The US has a proven long range strike capability. Any respite will be short lived. B. Once China starts hitting bases in on the home territory of other nations, they risk bringing them into the war. (The assumption is that in a limited confrontation between the US and China, several Pacific nations - even though allies of the US - may be reluctant to take an active part unless dragged in forcibly.) and C. The Subs we just talked about. Yes the Chinese have Subs, and they know about anti-sub warfare, but their capability isn't thought to be enough to be a real problem to the US subs, which would be a major threat.

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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Oct 11 12:43:05 2018
Today Thursday, October 11 2018 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!

Michelle Trachtenberg as Dawn Summers

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Annika, Charming Slayer, Michelle Trachtenberg, Nyte Wolf!

Pretty cool except for the part where I was really terrified and now my knees are all dizzy. Willow, 'Listening to Fear''''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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YayOfTheDay says:
(Thu Oct 11 11:57:01 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for jynx!

yay jynx!

Happy CD Thursday!

^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Oct 11 04:00:04 2018
Yay Ronia!

Happy Birthday belmont, Dax, Destiny, Megdalen, and Miss Edith!

wolfguard - I understand your bemusement at trying to locate the carriers. I hunted around and a Wikipedia page about US carriers said that 78 escort carriers were built between 1941 and 1945. A different page on escort carriers said that of 151 carriers built in the US during WWII, 122 were escort carriers. Were some of them given to the Royal Navy? I glazed over when the all the different classes came up in the pages that I found. *throws up hands*

I used the word senseless, but the author, Saburo Sakai, tried to describe his emotions on being ordered to lead a flight of promising young flyers into a ship, and that was the best I could come up with. But he and his superiors were acutely aware of the argument you put forth. Some eventuality, an attack by US aircraft, or a storm (it's been a long time since I read it) caused him to be unable to locate the target, and they returned, which is how he survived to write the book. Apparently his immediate superiors had had the same feelings, since they were relieved that he survived.

Stepping back, the limited success they had at Okinawa, which was serious damage to the enemy (i.e. us), but without preventing the loss (to them) of the island, led directly to the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The military feared an even greater loss of life on invading the main islands, and felt that the atomic bombs might actually save lives. I do not know, perhaps they did, but at a different cost to future generations.

Christopher Marlowe - I agree with your prediction of how the Scoobies would react to Halloween, except for Giles. Remember the sombrero and "It's alive! It's alive!"? He, ah, grew after experiencing Halloweens in Sunnydale. *g*

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 11 03:48:16 2018
Agent Cooper,

US submarines, like all submarines, have sensor and communication
constraints. A submarine's primary, organic sensor is its sonar, both active
and passive. Active is more precise, but announces the sub's presence.
Consequently the sub will usually use passive sonar. This can have great
range, but not a lot of precision.

Once upon a time, to see a sub had to go to periscope depth and once there
its range of sight was still limited. There are now ways to 'see' without
coming to periscope depth, but they still provide limited range.
Essentially, if a sub depends entirely on its onboard sensors then it's

What a sub can do is use communications to link into the rest of the Fleet.
The USN's goal is to tie-all ships, subs, aircraft, satellites and the like
into one nervous system that can share information. It's powerful, but it's
also vulnerable to hacking. Will you trust the information? Enough to act

If there were a war where subs fired missiles or torpedoes, then there will
come a time when you're emptied. No more missiles, no more torpedoes. The
sub will have to go to a designated place to be re-armed and the enemy will
be looking or will have found such places. It's a vulnerability.

All this assumes there is a war. China has achieved its aims in the South
China Sea without having gone to war. Here's the nutshell ...

Under international law, most of the South China Sea is international
waters. China does not recognize these laws. Various southeast Asian
countries have rights, under international law, to waters off their coasts.
China does not recognize many of these claims.

China has contested control of various reefs and islands. They usually use

Oops Have to finish tomorrow night,


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Oct 11 02:03:14 2018
White Wings,

When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the USN had 8 carriers, by hull
number. 1 through 8...

USS Langley
USS Lexington
USS Sarasota
USS Ranger
USS Yorktown
USS Enterprise
USS Wasp
USS Hornet

"Langley" had been converted from a collier. She was so badly damaged in
battle that she was scuttled.

"Lexington" and "Sarasota" were originally designed as battlecruisers.

"Ranger" was the first US carrier designed and built to be a carrier.

Lexington, Yorktown, Wasp, and Hornet were sunk in battle.

(Twelve US carriers were sunk during the war.)

Ranger, Sarasota, and Enterprise survived the war.

USS Essex, CV-9, was the lead ship of 24 Essex-class carriers. She
was commissioned late in 1942.

I've been trying to get an exact count of US carriers that served in WWII,
but I get different figures. If you google ~ number of US carriers WW2 ~ an
answer appears: 53 of all types with 48 built during the war. OK, but I know
there were over 120 escort carriers built.

Searching for all carriers had by participants in WWII lead to chart listing
around 200+ carriers (the list isn't numbered, I just scrolled down trying
to keep track of where I was). A problem here is several different
categories of carriers are included: carrier, light carrier, escort carrier,
merchant carrier, seaplane carrier, and even a ~ maintenance carrier.

The lion's share were in the US, Japanese, and British fleets. France had at
least one carrier as did Italy and Germany. Not sure the types.

Jumping to the end of your post where you noted the Japanese pilot who spoke
of the ~senseless sacrifice~ of the Kamikaze pilots. I'd not be so quick to
use "senseless". By 1945 the Japanese knew they had no chance of beating the
US. The best they could hope for was to persuade the US it would be too
costly to invade Japan. Towards that end, kill Americans and sink US Navy
ships. They no longer had the pilots, aircraft, or ordinance to do so -
using conventional methods. But, a man willing to die might put a fast plane
into a US warship.

It is hard to find a warship or even a fleet at sea - especially in the
1940's. An exception is when the ship or ships are forced to stay in a
confined space, as for instance when conducting and supporting an amphibious
landing, which was what the US was doing in Okinawa in April 1945. Around 30
US warships were sunk off Okinawa, perhaps most of them - if not all - by


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Oct 11 01:07:14 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who brought the Gem of Amarra to Angel?
Answer: Oz

Trivia Master: Agent Cooper!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Oct 11 00:51:52 2018
yay ronia!

deadguy qod

Buffy and Dawn dress up
Willow hands out candy with sparkle motion
Giles doesn't want to be bothered
Xander eats the candy

Happy Non-Angel Wednesday!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 10 20:38:52 2018

Maverick & White Wings,

Will ponder and reply later tonight,

Agent Cooper,

I've been following China's actions in the South China Sea since the early
90's. More on this later tonight. While the USN's submarine force is the cat's
meow, it does have weaknesses, some inherent to submarines. More on this later


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Oct 10 16:05:22 2018
White Wings - Wolfguard: I read an article recently about Chinese/US tensions in the SCS. The article, in talking about the likelihood of war mentioned that submarines, not carriers or battleships, are really the power of a modern navy, and the US far surpasses most every other nation in that regard.

Apparently the US has a fearsomely armed sub force, which is very hard to detect or keep eyes on. Furthermore, nobody knows for sure how many subs we actually have or where they are patrolling at any given time.

And there isn't much any of our adversaries can do about them. For instance, as the article mentioned, the Chinese can invent as many carrier killing missiles as the want. They have few options to counter US subs, which can hide anyplace and strike from far, far away.

The sub force is what really keeps the Chinese from taking their chances on a war with the US in the pacific, because their leadership knows they would lose a good portion of their navy quickly at the hands of US subs at the outset of any conflict.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Oct 10 14:34:46 2018
Trivia Girl: Oz!

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Wed Oct 10 13:36:30 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for ronia!

yay ronia!

today's deadguy memorial angel wednesday question is brought to you by:

the sunnydale candy shoppe

which of the scoobies dresses up, hands out candy, eats the candy, doesn't want to be bothered (halloween)?

Happy Non-Angel Wednesday!

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Oct 10 12:59:38 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Angel
Question: Who brought the Gem of Amarra to Angel?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Oct 10 12:51:54 2018
Today Wednesday, October 10th 2018 C.E.

We have FIVE (5) Birthdays!

Miss Edith

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to belmont, Dax, Destiny, Megdalen, Miss Edith!

his girl at school? She told me that gelatin is made from ground-up cow's feet and that every time you eat Jell-O there's some cow out there limping around without any feet. But I told her that I'm sure the cow is dead before they cut its feet off, right? Dawn, 'Listening to Fear'''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Wed Oct 10 12:37:58 2018
Agent Cooper--How silly, thinking a suburban housewife could hack into

*tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, success! Good God, you'd think the Pentagon would
do a better job protecting its new weapon systems, slackers. . .*

Belated Yay! Amystar!

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Maverick says:
(Wed Oct 10 07:00:13 2018
Wolfguard: I looked at my Sign-In Screen on this Windows 10 Dell. I get various pictures of nature (often state parks) and there are two little icons down in the lower right corner of the screen. If I click on the little icon on the left, I get a Password Screen superimposed over the nature picture. Below the place to put in the password, it says "Forgot Password?" and below that it says "Sign-In Options" I'm pretty sure the Staples guy who fixed my computer clicked on the "Sign-In Options." I did this (for you--know that I feared I would screw-up my machine) and I got two little icons. I Googled "Change Default Sign-In Options Windows 10. and got this screen. The one on the left looked like a number key pad (for a PIN,) and the one on the right was strange-looking but the exposition says it is for a cursor. So, you would want to choose the cursor. (I'm assuming at this point it was set for the PIN, and had to be re-set for the cursor.) Once you choose the cursor mode, it should once again accept your password.

white wings: Islam thinks of itself as the successor to Judaism and Christianity? I don't think so. Those Muslims who pray 5 times a day, denigrate Judaism and Christianity 17 times a day. They may think of themselves as the true way that Judaism should have gone.

Wolfguard, white wings: I've also gotten those phishing phone calls and ignored them. I WAS going to report the return phone number to the Feds but so far haven't found the time.

Wolfguard, white wings: "The Arsenal of Democracy" is a book about how Ford Motor Company built a factory at Willow Run that could produce a bomber airplane in a ridiculously short period of time (like a day or an hour.) Of course, they had Rosie the Riveter.


Human Nature

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white wings says:
(Wed Oct 10 05:49:52 2018
wolfguard - Your post snuck in as I was posting. *g*

The aviation advocates actually did a wonderful job in getting so many aircraft carriers built (weren't some converted from other ships?) considering the time and expense required. I vaguely recall that the military was somewhat starved between the wars, but I guess FDR succeeded in expanding budget more as times became more dire.

Interesting about the air defenses. I imagine it didn't hurt that we had radar to see the planes coming.

That makes sense about the US carriers in the Atlantic being mostly for U-boat defense. The British Navy had some teeth in that ocean, and the most serious naval effort was supplying Britain (and later Russia). And getting armies across, of course.

I didn't know about the different decks on the US vs. British carriers. But there weren't so many British carriers in the Pacific to be hit by kamikazes. Some that were hit by planes carrying bombs did have a fair amount of damage, but they seemed to fair better. Still, a number of the US carriers hit were able to continue operating after brief repairs.

The ship-a-day came from my father. He was not often wrong. I expect that figure stuck in his mind from something, and it stuck in mine from the way he was trying to convey the way the country recovered from the losses at Pearl Harbor and the general unpreparedness of industry, and converted the economy into a massive war machine.

There's a book called Samurai! By Saburo Sakai, one of the Japanese fighter pilots, which is eminently readable. It details the skill and pride of the pilots early in the war, and the growing feeling of helplessness against the growing numbers of US planes, and the horror of the senior pilots when the Kamikaze program was announced, and the conflict between iron discipline and obedience and the senseless sacrifice.

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white wings says:
(Wed Oct 10 03:05:33 2018
Yay amystar!

Happy Birthday AnGel X, emjas_C, Eric, Evanfreed, Sian B, and Yummy!

He's baaaaack!

wolfguard - That scam has been going on for over a year, judging from google. It may have grown more legs with the recent Win 10 debacle. Anyway, it's not personal, or an indication that you've been actually hacked.

There are some YouTube videos of people toying with such callers, but I don't have a long enough attention span to sit through them, although they are probably rather funny as they go along.

I got a call from a gentleman with a rather heavy accent telling me that he was my technical support.
"No you're not."
"Yes, yes, I am."
"Who do you work for?"
"The company that made your computer."
"What company is that?"
"The company that made your computer."
"What kind of computer do I have?"
"I'm your technical support."
"No you're not." Click.

Agent Cooper - Football is not dead! Mind, I only watch Longhorn football. Learning how to spot which team to cheer for was a hard-learned thing in my freshman year, and the habit stuck. *g* But they have actually started winning games. Back in my day (the glory days), that was taken for granted. Now, it's a matter for prayers ahead of time and thanksgiving afterwards. Last weekend they (barely) dispatched an old nemesis for the first time in some years. Anyway, it's not all dead. But I feel for you.

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wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 10 03:01:40 2018
White Wings,

The old guard believed battleships ruled; however, during the interwar years
there were many naval officers pushing the development of carriers and naval
aviation. While the old guard saw carriers as supporting battleships
(scouting), the aviation advocates did build the foundations through which
carriers came to dominate naval warfare in WWII.

In the early years of the war in the Pacific, both the American and Japanese
naval doctrine was to find the other guy's carrier(s) first so to hit them
first. In the later years, the USN anti-air defense, built around
battleships and cruisers, became so effective that it was often better to
entice the Japanese to attack so their planes could be shot down.

As I recall, the five or six big carrier battles between the US and Japan
were fought over a six month period after which Japan never really

Some end notes:

- American carriers in the Atlantic were largely used for anti-submarine
warfare. The US built around 120 Escort Carriers (smaller than regular

- American WWII carriers had wooden decks. I believe this was to help
stability, but it made the ships more vulnerable to bombs and kamikaze-like
attacks. British carriers had steel decks, I believe because they often
operated close to shore and so were expose to land artillery. The joke was
if a plane tried a kamikaze attack on a British carrier, then after it hit
the order would go out "Man Sweeps!" *g*

- As to your ship-a-day estimate. Making a rough count from 7 December 1041
to 2 September 1945 (VJ-Day) ~ 1,365 days. The US built 2,710 Liberty-class
merchant ships during the war. Looks like you're right. *g*

1 By this time the Japanese were already short experienced
pilots, because of their policy to keep pilots in combat. Once American
aviators reached a certain level of experience they were rotated state-side
to train new aviators (The USN calls "pilots" aviators, because "pilot" has
another nautical meaning , i.e. someone who pilots a ship.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 10 02:27:42 2018
Edited: Wed Oct 10 02:28:58 2018

Yes, Jesus spoke Aramaic. I believe all the Synoptic Gospels quote Jesus as
saying, ~ No prophet is honored by his family and homies ~ (my paraphrase).
After James and Paul split, Paul preached to the Gentiles of the Greco-Roman
world. Practically all the people of this time were illiterate. The Word was
conveyed orally and remembered orally. In time a few of the literate
Christians1 began putting the Word to "paper", possibly beginning
with Paul's letters to the churches. Since the mainstream Jews weren't
likely to write about Jesus as God, the default languages were Greek and
Latin. For whatever reasons, Greek was the language of the New Testaments.
Consider, "Christ" - Greek.

1 Once upon a time the first followers of Jesus were called the
Nazarene Jews and when Paul left them his followers may have been called the
Pauline Jews.

I've known and know folks who are Muslims. Your analysis does not fit their
beliefs and behaviors. OTOH, your own phrase ...

" Muslims are bellicose and their posture is to be (and or act)
insulted and so they are forever attacking others ...

Excepting perhaps "insulted", this description describes your actions
towards liberals and Muslims. "Forever attacking"


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 10 01:20:55 2018

I remember reading Clark Cable served in the Army Air Corp as a gunner. Just
googled his name and "service". One article said he went to 13-week officer
training school, trained as an "aerial gunner" and "photographer".
Afterwards he was sent to Europe where he filmed USAAC bomber operations. He
was credited with five combat missions, but airmen (?) who were there said
Gable flew many more than five. One said, ~ they didn't send him on "milk

I went to Amazon books and used the "advanced search" to find memoirs on the
Murmansk Run. Here are two ...

Why Me Lord? (US naval officer's memoirs)

Frozen Fury

Eyewitness Accounts of World War 2 Murmansk Run

This last title may be the subtitle for "Frozen Fury". I took bad notes. *g*


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Oct 10 01:04:04 2018
White Wings & Maverick,

Thanks for the information. My main machine is still down. Earlier this
afternoon I received a phone call saying ~ my Windows license was gone, not
working or the like and I should phone XYZ. Cell phone said call was likely
a scam, so I ignored it.

Now two questions ...

1) Is the call related to my password problem?

2) If so, is the caller responsible for the password problem or has the
caller recognized folks are having this problem and saw an opportunity for
running a scam?

Reading and pondering posts. Will reply later.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Oct 10 00:55:57 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Question: IN which episode did the Order of Taraka appear?
Answer: What's my Line

Trivia Master: Agent Cooper!

Sorry for the delay, I visited a friend of mine who had an accident some time ago and is now back in the area.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Oct 9 20:50:06 2018
Maybe we need to advertise.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Oct 9 13:04:41 2018
Wolfguard: The problem is likely a direct result of Lostinamerica hacking into your computer some kind of software issue with Win10.

Trivia Girl: What's My Line.

Whelp. Baseball season is over. The Yankees stink. Put a fork in them.

Hey! There's still football though. Um..actually maybe not. My Giants stink even worse.

Oh well, Hockey is here! Go Rangers! .....Oh. ...Errrrr

Yeah, so I'm done with sports till spring.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Oct 9 12:43:05 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Question: IN which episode did the Order of Taraka appear?

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Oct 9 12:35:54 2018
yay amystar!

deadguy qod

I think after the two Halloween episodes, the holiday is a total snoozefest for everyone!

Happy Non-Buffy Tuesday!

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Tue Oct 9 12:31:04 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for amystar

yay amystar!

today's deadguy memorial buffy tuesday question is brought to you by:

the sunnydale pumpkin patch

was giles eventually right about halloween being a snoozefest or are they still disastrous for buffy?

Happy Non-Buffy Tuesday!

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Tue Oct 9 12:30:14 2018
Today Tuesday, October 9th 2018 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!

AnGel X
Sian B

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to AnGel X, emjas_C, Eric, Evanfreed, Sian B, Yummy!

Yeah, we're building a race of frog-people. It's a good time Xander, 'No Place Like Home'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
Maverick says:
(Tue Oct 9 07:24:25 2018
Wolfguard: I had a similar problem with my Windows 10 around 2 or 3 months ago. It would not recognize my password to sign in. I took it back to Staples, where I had just bought it recently. The guy at Staples plugged it in at the front desk and looked at it as if he knew the problem. (Windows could have updated itself overnight to cause the problem.) Anyway, he basically said the sign-in had been somehow changed and he changed it back and it worked. (I hate to admit, I wasn't paying much attention to what he did.) It's like it was asking for something other than my password to start up, like you can set some different protocol to get it to start up. So, if that is kind of your problem, maybe check with Staples. If you get nowhere, let me know and I'll ask the guy exactly what he did.


God Only Knows

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Oct 9 05:33:40 2018
wolfguard - I googled around with variations
of win 10 corrupted password and win 10
corrupted user account.

There were tantalizing references to a
Hidden Adminisrator reachable by some
arcane key sequences, or some state that
might let you set up an account and use it
to access files.

I also saw something about a user having
his password changed to his Microsoft
account password. You might try using that
password if you havent already.

The more I learn about win 10, the more I
feel like Microsoft wants to control me.

^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Oct 9 00:43:58 2018
wolfguard - I feared for your automation when you were not present. This last update to Win 10 had another nasty side effect. It would delete user's files. I didn't see anything about passwords being lost, but if it could overwrite files, possibly it could delete the storage for passwords. They have paused the rollout. I saw some claims that they could help recover the deleted files, but I don't know about passwords. You could try support and mention the buggy rollout firmly, but if you can't log in, you can't do much, and neither can they. The workaround of copying off files might work if they weren't deleted.
One web page listed Microsoft support numbers as (800) 642 7676 or (800) 892 5234. A Microsoft site suggested +1-800-MICROSOFT (which may be one of the above numbers).

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Oct 9 00:20:26 2018
wolfguard I hope your
problems are speedily resolved!

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Oct 9 00:10:23 2018

Issues with Microsoft. After an automatic update Windows 10 would not accept
my password as correct ("incorrect password"). First tried a new keyboard,
problem remained. Next, tried on-screen keyboard, problem remained.
Contacted Microsoft - no help. Office Depot and Best Buy can copy my files
and programs then return the system to virgin state for $150-$200 (with
possible risk they might not copy all the files and programs).

For now I'm waiting to see if the next automatic update corrects the
problem. Until then have decided to buy a Chromebook for internet and word
processing. If anyone has further suggestions for solving the problem, I am
open to learning. *g*

Again the problem ...

From the desktop when I enter my password, system replies "incorrect
password". The password is correct.

Oops: I do not have a password reset disk. My bad.

Will be back tomorrow night to reply to previous and any future posts.

Night All


^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Oct 9 00:03:17 2018
Yay fenric!

Happy Birthday CrayonBreaky, KAT in the dark, kendra, wolfdog, rity, and Willow166!

DaddyCatALSO - I vaguely remembered Winston Churchill's writing of the Murmansk Run. He was deeply affected by the dangers and losses. But I googled. As long as men write about the dangers of the seas and the heroic deeds of those who take their ship into battle against long odds has a little personal color. I'm sure other pages have more, but this was what I saw. oooh, the link worked!

Maverick - I don't mind the high-falutin language. I like the King James Bible, so I can hardly begrudge the same thing to another religion. *g* So "We" in that context was the royal "we" for Allah. I skimmed a few pages when I was confirming my suspicion that your quote was abbreviated (but not by you), and all pointed out that conveniently skipped portion, but since I was taught that Islam regards itself as the successor to Judaism and Christianity, I did wonder if "Children of Israel" was directed only at Hebrews or at all three religions. What I read didn't go into that.

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Oct 8 23:24:16 2018
unnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: History
Question: Who attempted to assassinated Ronald Reagan to impress Jodie Foster?
Answer: John Hinckley

Trivia Masters: Agent Cooper, notsoShyGirl
Trivia Newbie: Maverick!

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Oct 8 20:37:58 2018
Maverick Yeah.

Agent cooper ,/b] Yes, I know *what* the Murmansk Run was. Problem is, I'd like to read something t hat could tell me how it felt, the way I can find stuff easily for the Blitz, Normandy, the Bulge,e tc. (the Spike-based character in my WWII novel idea sails the Murmansk run repeatedly and comes back, but is killed ina London club by a V-1. His last words, "Not on land! No, not on land!" Lois, the Buffy based character (a civilian pilot working in Britain as on e of "Jessie's Girls") hears about how her long old high school sweetheart dies at Pearl, and loses 3 boyfriends to the war, and Irish ex-apt flying for Canada, the British Naval officer ,a nd an American OSS agent.

^ v
Maverick says:
(Mon Oct 8 20:21:17 2018
Trivia Girl: Travis Bickle

white wings: The Quran is supposedly Allah's words as revealed by Jibreel (Gabriel) to Muhammad, who supposedly repeated it, and it was supposedly written down by others, so the language is perhaps unnecessarily high-falutin. I thought for a moment, there, that you were going to point to the pronoun "We" which shows up from time to time in the Quran. Muslims have a problem with the Christian trinity (which they mistakenly think includes God, Jesus, and Mary) and keep saying there is only one God (saying anything else is called "Shirk" and CAN be punished by Death) and then they go and do the "We" thing. Anyway, go back and read a little bit of that page I linked to in my first post on this subject. Yes, Allah said he commanded Jews to act, like, conscientiously, but the Muslims are not under the same restrictions. (Aside: "Creating Mischief in Arab Lands" is a sin punishable by death and WE (everyone in the U.S.) are all under this verdict, even if we only contributed our tax dollars to pay for our military that visited there.)

Christopher Marlowe: Your comment sounds like you cannot put yourself in Kavanaugh's shoes--to be accused of something with no proof and enormous deficiencies in her "story" and to be questioned over and over about a lie and having it repeated by irrational, unreasonable, hysterical, hateful people with power over you. Although I dislike Susan Collins listen to Susan Collins's speech in which she logically reasoned why she was going to vote "Yes" on his confirmation to the Supreme Court. She's usually wishy-washy on things but in this case she makes unemotional, logical, reasonable, informed sense.

DaddyCatALSO: What's that about Clark Gable's beehive?


Tax Driver

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Oct 8 19:39:14 2018
Daddycat: The Murmansk Run refers to the supply ships crossing the Arctic Seas from England to Murmansk during WWII as part of the Western Allies' efforts to send supplies to Russia.

It was a very dangerous mission. German subs were always on the prowl and parts of the route were well within range of german fighter planes.

The weather was treacherous and the ocean that far North is freezing cold, so if your ship was hit you could survive for only a few minutes in the cold water.

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Oct 8 16:49:30 2018|
wolfguard I beehive Clark Gable (also too old) and Tyrone Power were also combat pilots. John Payne (this I looked up) was a flight instructor. Doug Fairbanks JR actually commanded small ships, I belief he was on the Murmansk Run, a thing I can find little about in my local library. David Niven, who had been an officer before becoming an actor, was a n infantry-I-believe officer, a s were any number of lesser lights.

^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Oct 8 14:31:19 2018
Trivia Girl
John Hinckley Jr.

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Oct 8 14:16:03 2018
Christopher Marlowe: No, you're thinking of baseball. There's no crying in baseball. Hopefully, though, there may be some crying in Boston tonight. Go Yanks!

Trivia Girl: John Hinckley (sp?) Jr.

Am I in before Notsoshygirl??

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Mon Oct 8 12:49:13 2018
let's hear a great big bronze cheer for fenric!

yay fenric!

Goodbye Blue Monday!

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Oct 8 12:41:47 2018
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: History
Question: Who attempted to assassinated Ronald Reagan to impress Jodie Foster?

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Oct 8 12:25:19 2018
Today Monday, October 8th 2018 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!

KAT in the dark

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to CrayonBreaky, KAT in the dark, kendra, wolfdog, rity, Willow166!

Simon: Captain's a good fighter, he must know how to handle a sword. Zoe: I think he knows which end to hold. 'Shindig''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Mon Oct 8 02:36:33 2018
Happy Birthday OldManFan!

^ v
white wings says:
(Mon Oct 8 02:24:43 2018
Christopher Marlowe - I think that it would be preferable to not have tears in what should be a professional hearing. However, that would be pretty dry and boring to the onlookers. This way was more bread and circuses. Well, just circuses. I suppose a little bit of that keeps people awake. My brother still fondly remembers watching a fistfight break out in the Texas State Circus back in his college days. *g*

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Oct 7 21:19:05 2018
white wings That is true, men and women should be allowed to display emotion without censure. However it is weird that we are talking about this in the contest of a confirmation hearing, it's like there should be no crying in hearings.

^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Oct 7 19:20:03 2018
Happy Birthday Bashful Lurker, elf, Kat Beck, MCAT, opy1canoby, NumfarGal, OldManFan, Sarah W, StarMaiden_2002, and WinterRain!

Christopher Marlowe - *tips hat to opposing viewpoint* Take heart, if proof exists, I'm sure that CNN and MSNBC stand ready to publish it. It has never worked for Juanita Broaddrick, but times change. It's also too late to stop the confirmation, but something might be achieved in terms of voting behaviors.

I didn't watch the full testimony of either - I was working during hers and found other things to do during his, but I have seen some clips. I think you may be unfair. Blasey Ford teared up during her testimony without being criticized for it, so I think that in the name of equal opportunity, we should allow him to do so as well. It would be unreasonable to say that if men show emotion in the same way, it becomes a pejorative adjective.

I certainly take your point that a woman arguing back aggressively tends to be regarded as a bitca or an hysteric. I'm sure that it's partly body language and vocal tones, and the other part has made me grind my teeth from time to time. But the resulting desire to be an ax murderess has to be stifled. I saw the menus at State Hospitals 38 years ago. Unseasoned, for fear spices would affect behaviors. They may have changed over the years, but I'm not going to take any chances. For that matter I deeply fear that the prison system is still serving a vegetarian soylent green, in spite of having stimulated prison riots by overdoing it in a desire to save money. No ax murdering here. *g*

Maverick - I saw (with help from google) that both quotes were incomplete, but I didn't get into it because I wasn't certain of the point you were going for, not having followed the whole conversation. I don't understand the intention of "We have ordained for the children of Israel". Does that mean that the rest of the statement is a law that children of Israel must follow, or a law that must be followed when dealing with children of Israel? For that matter, I wonder who they mean by "children of Israel". I immediately think of Hebrews, but I don't know that the composers of the Koran/Quran did the same.

The part that you (and various clerics) dropped, the "unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land" is certainly a notable exclusion, since being an unbeliever is occasionally called being a corrupter. I'm not trying to make any point, just pursuing some curiosity.

I might be avoiding working on a spreadsheet. *thinks* Oh, surely not. ;-)

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sun Oct 7 15:07:30 2018
Today Sunday, October 7th 2018 C.E.

We have TEN (10) Birthdays!

Bashful Lurker
Kat Beck
Sarah W

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Bashful Lurker, elf, Kat Beck, MCAT, opy1canoby, NumfarGal, OldManFan, Sarah W, StarMaiden_2002, WinterRain!

I may be love's *****, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. Spike, 'Lovers Walk'

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Oct 7 14:02:27 2018
Maverick Too bad that they didn't allow proof that Kavaaugh is unfit to be a Judge. If a woman behaved like that during a hearing, she would be excoriated, but a crying douchbro gets sympathy.

^ v
Maverick says:
(Sun Oct 7 05:55:37 2018
Wolfguard, DaddyCatALSO, white wings, lostinamerica, Agent Cooper, ChristopherMarlowe: Yes, BOTH quotes are flawed and were taken out of context. I wanted to show you how Muslims can be underhanded in arguing their positions. These deceitful quotes were from an Islamic Apologist (an Apologist has nothing to do with the standard English term "apology" which means a statement of regret for some words or acts. Rather, an Apologist is like a Defender of the Faith, someone who "explains" various fine points of a specific religion's beliefs.)

So, an Islamic Apologist has an almost impossible job, as Muslims are bellicose and their posture is to be (and or act) insulted and so they are forever attacking others. A Muslim Apologist needs to provide "cover" so he misquotes the Quran 5:32 to make his "religion" sound more high-minded or noble. The first quote I provided was supposedly from the Quran (Koran) and it says a rather magnanimous thing and acknowledges that to kill a person is to kill the world and whosoever saves a person from being harmed saves the world. The Islamic Apologist attributes the quote, by silent default, as if it is about Islam, but let's look at the ACTUAL full quote.

"Here is 5:32 in its context, with all words included (emphasis mine):

'On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.'"

So, the magnanimous ones, it turns out, were the Children of Israel, i.e. The Jews. The Apologist kept this information hidden. In the second quote, the Apologist knew he couldn't afford to allow Muhammad to be compared to Jesus, so he chose to deceive by pulling a carefully chosen quote out of the Bible, a quote that makes Jesus, for those who are unfamiliar with the parables of Jesus, for instance, sound uncharacteristically bloodthirsty. I saw one "debate" where the Muslim quoted Jesus in this way, and it turned out to be a "show-stopper" as the Christian apologist didn't know how to handle such an accusation of Jesus.

(If I am confusing you, perhaps perusing this page Answering Muslims - where Christian Apologists discuss Muslim Apologists would help.)

Since I have become familiar with this Muslim "trick," it has amazed me how often Muslims have gotten away with it. Why? For one, WE are a generous country and want to think well of people. That's why someone like George W. Bush would want to believe Islam is a "Religion of Peace." We don't want to confront Muslims with their duplicity. Also, Democrats don't care to know anything derogatory about anyone that they are sure will vote Democratic. Democrats are willing to put up with all kinds of freeloading people (they don't think the money comes from THEM) and with allowing dangerous people to prey on the general populace, so as to win future elections, which they think they can control. Importing creepy people so you can feel generous or just so you can win elections is a foolhardy endeavor. You can't control those people once they are loose in the U.S.A. The other reason we can't seem to answer Muslim disingenuousness is that we know so little about Islam and don't even know our own Christianity's beliefs.

Wolfguard2: My understanding of "Peter" and "Rock" and "The Pope" goes like this: Peter was originally named Simon and after Jesus renamed him "Peter" is often referred to as Simon-Peter. The word "Peter" or Petros or Petra evidently means "Rock" in Greek, which is a tad confusing. Jesus spoke Aramaic, which "The Passion of the Christ" annoyingly points out. But, either Jesus did it, or the translators did it, but Jesus appears to have made a Greek pun, when he said, "Thou are Peter (Rock) and upon this Rock I will build my church. Of course, elsewhere, Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. It DOES seem to indicate that Jesus wanted Peter to lead his church on earth. St. Peter's bones are supposedly buried somewhere in the Vatican.

Yay, Rule of Law. Yay, Presumed Innocence. Yay, Due Process.


What If God Was One of Us?

^ v
Comma says:
(Sun Oct 7 04:37:44 2018
I have stated this on here before: "If the Japanese had sent the third wave, the US would have lost all it's docks. No dry docks, no raising and repairing any ships." It may have been a year or more before any ships could have also resupplied Hawaii. The US, without the Hawaiian docks, could never have fought the war against Japan.


^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Oct 7 03:42:54 2018
Happy Birthday FASTEDDIE, Michael, RTBS, Sebastian, Thumper, and Wigginsy!

lostinamerica - Thank you. I'm doing much better. Pills, ice packs, and a heavy rain to clear the air helped a lot.

We like to stop and think about things. See what's going on. In some cases an instantaneous flight response is a better survival technique. I remember once taking a picture of my horse out in the pasture. I hit the last frame on the roll, and that camera had an automatic rewind. It was a long time before I realized that the rewind had a buzzing that might sound like a rattlesnake. I looked up from the camera, and the horse was just not there. I never saw her go, but she was off in the next pasture. That response often doesn't help in the case of a fire, when the way to a safer place may be scary, but I imagine that it is very helpful for tsunamis.

wolfguard - Aging is rough. On the other hand, I suffer so much less by being smart enough to not try and work through the headaches I get from allergies, and just take rest and remedies.

I wasn't certain of Jimmy Stewart in WWII, but I knew that he flew in the Berlin airlift. Only I don't seem to find reference to the Berlin Airlift in my googling, but I could have missed it, and I'm sure he flew in it unless I'm remembering some movie. *g*

If I'm remembering properly, aircraft carriers came into their own during WWII, but at the beginning the battleships were regarded as the strength of the Navy, and losing those at Pearl Harbor was a crushing psychological blow (even if some were later raised). I definitely remember that the old books that my father had spoke of how defenseless everyone felt after Pearl Harbor, and I remember his telling me that it took time to retool the factories, but that by the end of the war we were turning out a ship a day. Maybe not battleships, but ships.

The Japanese bought more than a few months. Wasn't Midway, in June of '42, regarded as a turning point? Oh, wait. *counts fingers* December to June is six months. OK, a little more than a few months. It depends on the definition of "few". ;-)

I just read recently of the Chinese behavioral scoring system. It looks at everything you do that they can record, and online activity is a factor. They've had google developing a monitored search engine. It affects whether or not you can travel or what jobs you can have. It means that you can effectively hold people prisoner without having to build walls. It certainly is a form of retraining, since if someone wants to eat they might need to work on their social score. We have FICO scores, but the social score is much more inclusive.

In this country we already have the beginnings of online control. It's not officially government control, and it's programmed, so I'm not sure how you'd classify it. Google definitely manipulates search results. Supposedly they are tailoring it to people's tastes by "an algorithm". But we have the released internal dialogue that they had about deliberately manipulating results for the gain of a political POV. Facebook apparently does its best to quietly choke off conservative views, unless someone kicks up a fuss, and then they apologize and blame their "algorithm". There seem to be a lot of those mistakes. But I do suspect that "net neutrality", which was a solution in search of a problem, was intended to inject FCC regulation of the internet, and eventually regulate content. I suspect it even more from the fury with which the repeal was fought, given that the situation it was allegedly preventing had not occurred.

We have a recent case of actual peer pressure. A VP at Facebook had worked in the Bush administration (how the heck did he get through the FB HR processes?) and was a long time friend of Kavanaugh. He wasn't vocal about anything, but someone saw a picture of him sitting quietly in the Senate hearings among Kavanaugh's friends and family. There was a flood of protests by FB employees about his being there. He was apparently forced to apologize for doing that "without consulting his superiors". Yup, get out the tar and feathers. I'll be amazed if he retains that job for very long. Evidently no one in that crowd is allowed to have his own unapproved opinions. Of course that's a relatively small social sample. We have the punishment of group hectoring inflicted for "walking while working for Trump". How long do we go before Maxine Waters and Cory Booker have "will no one rid me of this troublesome " moments, and someone takes them up on it? I do so wish that some right wing nutjob hadn't been recently arrested for threatening to kill liberals. It definitely makes a holier than thou group stance kind of impossible. Makes one think of a wider application of "the colonel's lady and Judy O'Grady are sisters under their skin", doesn't it? *g*

It's time for more pills. I can feel it.

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Sun Oct 7 02:21:00 2018
wolfguard, ChristopherMarlowe, white wings--And another example that
animals are smarter than people, from the most recent tsunami in Palu according
to a survivor:

"Across the road, she saw floors of the Mercure Hotel collapse.

There was a little voice in my head that said, Maybe it is a tsunami, she said.

Though earthquakes were common in Palu, she could not remember a tsunami
following any of them. Then she saw a horse that had broken free of a carriage
running like crazy. She hit the gas, steering away from the bay."

You're darn right, sister--though I'm gonna have to say I'd have hit the gas when
I saw the hotel floors collapsing ;)

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Sun Oct 7 00:47:58 2018
Happy Birthday FASTEDDIE,
and Thumper!

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Oct 6 23:06:20 2018
Finally home...just too much in too little time!

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sat Oct 6 12:21:16 2018
Today Saturday, October 6th 2018 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to FASTEDDIE, Michael, RTBS, Sebastian, Thumper, Wigginsy!

Don't let the space bugs bite! Kaylee, 'Objects In Space'''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Sat Oct 6 11:59:14 2018
white wings--So sorry, feel
better :(

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 6 03:52:08 2018
White Wings,

Aging is not for young folks, eh? *g*

3 of 3

I'll give you that on the use of the IoT. The Chinese system uses ~social
scoring~ to deliver rewards and punishments (I believe by restricting what you
can have or do). I believe in the US such changes will be driven more by peer
pressure and commercial interest as we have seen in how the practice of
smoking is restricted (for the record, I've never smoked in my life).

OTOH, I suspect someone(s) will eventually destroy the Internet, by intent or
accident. *g*


^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Oct 6 03:20:04 2018
Yay Catriona!

Happy Birthday Seesa!

wolfguard - Apologies. I have thoughts and memories from old reading, but am suffering from fall elm. Allegra has failed me. In my younger days I would have tried to power through it. Now I am retiring with pills and ice packs.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 6 03:06:07 2018

Recall the passage in Matthew ...

~ On this rock I will build my Church ~

I may not have that exact, but I believe you will recognize the
actual line if I've gotten it wrong.

What does it mean? An old friend of mine, now passed away, told me he had
misunderstood it till he had reached middle-age. He had been born and raised
Catholic and staid in the Church until sometime in his 40's he left to
embrace Full Gospel / Pentecostal.1 He told me that the Catholic
Church taught the "rock" referred to Peter. During the time when he was
searching for a fuller relationship or meaning he was praying and had an
epiphany, courtesy of God, that "rock" meant revelatory knowledge. From
there was easy to step away and forward. So which meaning is it or is it
instead something else?

1 I've listened to him and another friend debate the history and
variations of these two churches or denominations and I'm pretty sure that
slash doesn't do justice to reality. But you probably get the gist of the
journey he went to from Catholicism to this other take on Christianity.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 6 02:50:19 2018
White Wings,

2 of 3

What I remember was one or two dozen ships were seriously damaged or sunk
and several of these were later salvaged and returned to service.
1 To check my memory, skimmed one article and looked at one chart
on Wikipedia.

The article said 18 ships were sunk or grounded. Eight were battleships of
which four were sunk - and three of those were later raised and returned to
service. Utah was completely destroyed as to was the USS
which continues as a memorial to those lost.

What was fascinating was the chart. It showed all the various warships at
Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941. I ran my finger down the list counting and
it looks like 100 ships. Beside each ship's name was what happened to it.
Over 60 were undamaged. So Imperial Japan took out 18 of 100 ships, 8 of
them battleships. Six of those battleships would return to service to fight
Japan. Almost all of the other damaged ships returned to service.
Essentially Japan bought a few months to occupy parts of southeast Asia and
turned the US' might and fury against them. A masterful example of failed
grand strategy.

1 As I remember there were three aircraft carriers in the Pacific
on 7 December 1941. Sarasota was in San Diego (?). Enterprise
and Lexington were ferrying aircraft to Midway and Wake islands.


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wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 6 02:18:39 2018
White Wings,

1 of 3

Jimmy Stewart was a real airman in WWII and continued service in the
reserves. I knew he flew combat missions and kept out of the public eye
while doing it. Just skimmed the military service section of Wikipedia's
article on him.

He was drafted in October 1940, but was underweight. He went to one of the
Hollywood trainers and bulked up enough to enlist in the Army in March of
1941. He applied to one of the flight programs and though over the age
limit, he had the advantage of already having a pilot-license and was Jimmy
Stewart. He was commissioned as a 2LT in January of 1942, i.e. around a
month after Pearl Harbor.

His first assignments lead him to fear he was going to be kept in the states
using his celebrity-status to promote the war effort. With help he
eventually got overseas and into combat. He flew and lead combat air
missions in Europe. He appears to have been the real thing - one more
American who believed he should serve his country in fighting the war
against the Axis powers.

The Wikipedia article goes into a lot of detail,


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wolfguard says:
(Sat Oct 6 00:47:02 2018

Someone is always ready to capitalize on someone else's misfortune What I do
not know is who was leading who in creating the internment policy. I suspect
the US and California governments were responding to the general public's
anger and fear, but I'd also not be surprised to learn that other parties
were promoting it, because of perceived economic benefits.


What Lostinamerica said. *g* But also ....

While a religious quote might elicit a thought or feeling, I tend not to use
such to form my impression of the religion or its followers. There's, as
Lostinamerica noted, the problem of context. People steeped in the
Bible and Koran argue with each other daily on the meaning of this or that
passage. And dare we speak of the Talmud? Inter-generational debates in it.

It's also possible to think one knows the context, but does not. For years
I've been guilty of this error in sagely quoting Chou Enlai. He'd been
asked, "What do you think about the Revolution in France?" He replied, "To
early to tell."

Doesn't that say something about differing perspectives of time or how one
may not know the real consequences of some action or event until years have
gone by? I use to use the line all the time - always attributing it to Chou.

Then I learned Chou wasn't being asked about "The French Revolution", but
about the French students' revolt in 1968. As they say in France, "C'est la
vie!" *G*

Next, there's translation. "To begin to translate, is to begin to lie." Why
is this? For one, languages cannot be counted on to have one-to-one
correspondences in words. Sometimes to render a translation true, one has to
bypass the literal translation. An example ...

A person was doing simultaneous translation of a speech at an international
organization, probably the UN. The speech was in English and was being
translated into Russian. Here's the line ...

Speaker: "A leopard can't change it's spots."

This doesn't mean much in Russian, so ...

Translator: "A hunchback cannot remove his hump."

Thanks for the opportunity to lecture. Now, where do you actually want to
take the comparison of the two quotes?

White Wings,

Replying to yours may take a bit of time to ponder. *g*


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cmarlowe says:
(Fri Oct 5 21:58:02 2018
yay catronia!

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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Fri Oct 5 19:27:52 2018
Agent Cooper wolfguard The Japanese-American internment was also heavily-race driven. West coast whites wanted to keep control of the territory, and moving a big chunk of of the Asians inland would help in that. Anecdotally, I heard (from the department head in my grad school time) that many japanses blame it more on the individual states than on the Fed.
There were governemtn handouts given to people, like Home Guard members, on how to "tell" a Japanese form a Chinese.

I can't speak to Rwanda

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Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Oct 5 18:13:40 2018
Comma - I was sort of puzzled by this story at first, because was under the impression Meth was pretty cheap, as drugs go. I figured it was like heroin, which is very cheap. A quick google search tells me that's not the cast. As prevalent as it is, it's still a very expensive habit.

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Comma says:
(Fri Oct 5 16:55:33 2018
Kirby Wallace was captured this morning without further bloodshed. He did have a large amount of ammunition along with several different guns and knives. Most, if not all, the guns were stolen.

Two murdered, one kidnapped, several persons terrified in home invasions, numerus vehicles broken into, and a week for residents being afraid of every noise, just to support a meth habit.


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lostinamerica says:
(Fri Oct 5 13:15:49 2018
Maverick--Your quote is
taken out of context. It is from
a parable about a king and the
king says this, not Jesus.

cc wolfguard, Agent Cooper,
ChristopherMarlowe, DaddyCatALSO,
whit wings

Yay! Catriona!

Belated Yay! Thoin!

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Trivia Girl says:
(Fri Oct 5 12:43:28 2018
Today Friday, October 5th 2018 C.E.

We have ONE (1) Birthdays!


Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Seesa!

Don't let the space bugs bite! Kaylee, 'Objects In Space'''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

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